Tiny Rice Grains.....with Lyn R Lee

We are so excited to have Lyn R Lee on A Dog Called Diversity to talk about her career and her new book Tiny Rice Grains. 

As the former Global Head of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) at Shell, Lyn  shares with host Lisa Mulligan her:

• Remarkable 22-year+ career at Shell
• How her book "Tiny Rice Grains" came about.  
• Her approach to DEI work that focuses on human connection, authentic storytelling, and the power of small, consistent actions that accumulate to create meaningful change.

🎧  Listen in to learn more about:

• Lyn's career path from organizational psychologist to global DEI leader
• Her initial reluctance to take the DEI role
• The importance of women supporting other women
• Creating a legacy of inclusion
• Recognizing when it's time to step back and create space for new leadership
• The symbolism of rice in Asian culture and DEI work
• Writing "Tiny Rice Grains" as part of her ongoing legacy
  
  

Find Lyn's book "Tiny Rice Grains" on Amazon.com, with global availability rolling out between October and December.

Attend Lyn's book events in South East Asia  and London:

• Singapore - 29 August
• London - 9 Oct
• Manila - 7 Nov
• India and Hong Kong Q1 2026

Contact Lyn on LinkedIn if you would like to:

• Hold an event in your organisation, 
• Keynote speaking opportunities, 
• Leader engagements in your organisation, 
• Bulk book orders, and 
• book signings.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting Lynn Lee: Shell's DEI Leader
• 2:55 Early Career in Psychology and Government
• 6:24 Joining Shell: A Pivotal Career Decision
• 16:07 Taking on the Global DEI Role
• 30:45 Building a Lasting DEI Legacy at Shell
• 38:23 The Bhutan Side-Hustle Journey
• 47:58 Writing "Tiny Rice Grains"
• 54:02 Book Details and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to A Dog Called Diversity, and this week I have such a special guest and I thought for the intro I'd tell you about how I came to know about Lynne Lee and she's probably going to think I'm stalking her, but I went. I did a trip to Singapore in November last year. Part of that trip was to attend a conference in Singapore about diversity, equity, inclusion, and I was lucky enough to see Lynn speak and at the time she was still the global head of diversity, equity and inclusion at Shell, and Shell is a company that I had admired in my DEI work. The company I worked for, which was Wall-E, was a supplier to Shell and I was often feeling like I was trying to catch up to the great work that Shell was doing. We had worked together in certain parts of the world with Shell around DEI work, so I was feeling pretty connected and interested in Lynne and her work.

Speaker 1: 1:09

And then she posts a book or she posts on LinkedIn about her book, which I'm going to get her to talk about. But even just the title, which is Tiny Rice Grains, resonated so well with me and how we approach DEI work. So welcome, lynn, it's great to have you here, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Lisa, and it's really nice to know that you had been following the work at Shell.

Speaker 1: 1:35

Yeah, so I don't think you're stalking me, by the way.

Speaker 1: 1:38

Ah, good, good, good Thought. It might sound a little stalkerish, but here we are. So I wanted to start with your career, because you've had a really successful career, not just at Shell, but doing some other things in the world. But you've worked for over 22 years at Shell and in our pre-chat you told me you've now retired retired, but I can see that you're on a couple of boards and you've written a book and you've done some study about wine. Yes, so I wanted to start a bit with your career and, I guess, learn a bit about what you've learned about people throughout your career. You've had a career in HR, for the most part from what I can see, but what have you learned about people during that time?

Speaker 2: 2:37

Right, thanks for that curiosity, lisa. So let me just break down my career and my life journey into a few segments Early career and then the pivotal moments around mid-career where I had to make some big decisions, and then in senior leadership and what that meant. So I'm a trained psychologist in organization psychology and always quite interested as well in clinical. But I made that decision when I had to go do my master's without pursue clinical or organization and I decided organizational psychology. But when I came back to Singapore I actually took a role as a counselor in the Singapore Association for Mental Health where I am now a board member. So I did that for six months and I actually felt I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready emotionally. So knowing a topic theoretically and being passionate about something doesn't always translate into the work that you can do. So I realized very much early on that I wasn't ready. So I made a very quick exit and then I joined.

Speaker 2: 3:56

I was in the government in the Singapore government as well as the Michigan municipal government for my early career so about four years in the two governments and was involved in leadership, development and in the US and in affirmative action. And I wanted to mention my early career, because at that point in time I had no idea that that part of my early career again would come full circle in terms of then me taking on a role as the global head of DE&I for a fortune 100 company. Yeah, so sometimes it's good for us to reflect on where we've come from, because we can actually then see the connections and from the roles in terms of our growth journey as well. So that's early career. And then I spent about eight years in consulting and I really liked that because it gave me diversity of portfolio. It opened up my mind and my world in terms of different types of organizations I work with big and small and different types of complexities, of problems and opportunities that I had to be involved in. So that was a really good time in my life. Yeah, so that's early career.

Speaker 2: 5:16

And then I pivoted when I had my second child. Second child and having one versus two is a world of difference. It really is. Yes, I went from being able to manage I think you know my life uh, being a mother traveling to suddenly feeling out of control. So I decided to take some time off, but it didn't really last very long. I was maybe away for about eight months I had to get back to work, so it was an opportunity at shell.

Speaker 2: 5:51

Um, and it was actually my first opportunity getting into in-house human resources because, again, I was a trained psychologist in organization psychology, so being in consulting was probably much more in line with what I had been trained to do and then making a decision to get into HR in a company like Shell.

Speaker 2: 6:14

Funnily enough, a lot of people don't believe me, but I took a pay cut because I thought I would have a simpler life in Shell, right, maybe more manageable hours and et cetera, et cetera. That lasted maybe 10 seconds. I can imagine Brand new world travel, a lot in regional roles and then global roles. So it was formative for me in terms of working with really bright people from all over the world. It was formative for me as well because my first experience in Shell, in my second week I was in a leadership program and the first thing that the commercial manager did was to get us all to line up in a row from our years of experience, from the least number of years of experience to the most number of years in terms of tenure, and we started talking about inclusion and I was totally blown away, totally blown away.

Speaker 2: 7:26

I had never been. You know, through all that time that I was working in consulting and in the government had a conversation like that at the start of a business meeting. So it really impressed me what the importance and priority that was in Shell right much earlier on and we already had people in D&I roles, regional roles, who were doing training, conducting training. So that was 20 over years ago.

Speaker 2: 7:49

Yeah, yeah, so really kind of really embedded in me what the company prioritized. Yeah, so those were the early days, had a great time. I was, you know, I had an expatriate role as well, in the US, and the other thing that really impressed on me was just a sheer diversity of my teammates and the people that I spoke to every day speak to at least five different groups of people from different continents every single day, and it became my norm, and when I sit back now, not being in the company and not being in my role, I think back and I think, wow, how amazing, what privilege. Yeah, it really opened up my mind and it really gave me that platform to learn to appreciate, to sometimes get into a corner around how diversity sometimes doesn't work and what do you do when people do not get along, et cetera. But it just gave me that whole canvas around the challenges and opportunities. Yeah, so, mid-career, I think I had quite a journey as well Regional roles I stepped into Shell in a commercial HR business partnering role and very quickly found myself in global roles had made really good friendships, good and strong friendships with the commercial leaders Some of them I speak in my book, which you'll come back to later.

Speaker 2: 9:30

And then the pivotal moment when I was asked if I would consider taking on the role of HR vice president for our shared service. So in Shell, I think, in some companies at that point in time again, you know, more than 10 years ago shared service very much relates to finance or HR services. But the job that I landed was amazing. So I was a little bit nervous because I said, well, I'm not sure if I'm the right person.

Speaker 2: 10:05

Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm the right person. Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm up to it. You know, classic female imposter syndrome. Classic.

Speaker 1: 10:11

Classic Did someone bully you into the job then?

Speaker 2: 10:17

I was not sure, you know, because I was going to be the head of HR for operations to take care of all of the chat service that we had in different locations around the world. And it was HR, it was IT, it was finance, it was customer service, procurement or so many things, right, very different from what people expect. And it was a growth phase. And I was thinking. The first thing that came to my mind was but you know what? I've never done industrial relations, and I don't really know much about those countries, so I'm not sure if I'm the right person.

Speaker 2: 10:52

Yeah, so that was in my mind, um, and I finally made that choice because my then boss, who had called me for the job, was this really nice um lady, and she was actually the first female leader in the most senior HR executive level in Shell. And she called me and she was such a nice lady and she really convinced me that I should join her team. And I was convinced because she was such a good person, right, I wanted to work and learn from her. And the other person convinced because she was such a good person, right, that I wanted to work and learn from her. And the other person that convinced me was my mom uh, so at that point in time, my mom was actually, uh, seriously ill, yeah, so she was on her deathbed basically.

Speaker 2: 11:39

Yeah. So, uh, when I was asked to to interview for the job and when I was called, you know, to be offered the job, I spoke to my mom and she said so. I told her I'm not sure if I'm ready and she said you should just take the job. But I was thinking that you know you're sick, right, so I'm not sure if this is the right time, because I have to take care of my girls, who were then young teenagers. And my mom said you should just do what is right for you. Right, and this is right for you, this is the career progression that you should have.

Speaker 2: 12:17

So she encouraged me and I thought, okay, fine, I'm just gonna do it and then figure out how to manage the rest of my personal life, with mom being sick etc. And I had siblings, right. But I mean, it weighed on me that I couldn't do this new job and have my mind somewhere else when I had my young teenage daughters and my mom being ill. So, anyway, I accepted the job and a few days later my mum passed away, yeah, but you know, I felt really that I took on the job because it was the right thing to do and that was the last thing that my mum wanted for me in terms of legacy, yeah, so I did that job so well I bet you did, and I can imagine that it would have broadened your business experience and, I guess, your understanding of the global business.

Speaker 1: 13:10

having all of those different shared services because, I mean, they end up being the core of running the business. So yeah, keeping your systems working, making sure you're paying your suppliers, like all of that stuff, as well as the HR services, yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:24

And growing you, you know, growing the uh offices, so, um, closing certain offices that were smaller, but really growing in other places. So in that five years that was in that role, we doubled the number of people that we had. Yeah, and I did the job so well as well because I really wanted to do it. For my mom, because she had faith in me. Right, she had faith in me, she knew I would do well, uh, despite my imposter syndrome and thinking that I couldn't do it, she knew I could and I thought, well, if mom thinks that I can do it, then I can, right. And also then my, my previous boss, carol, who had told me that you'll be fine, you know you don't get into a job and know everything, right, because there's no challenge. So it was really women supporting other women. I really felt that conviction from other people that I could do this.

Speaker 1: 14:21

Yeah, yeah and that you had their support as well. So when you needed help or someone to talk to. They were all going to be there for you.

Speaker 2: 14:28

Yeah, yes, it was so fun as well, because and this is one of the things that I continue to remember I had such a great team. So it was one of those roles where I had the opportunity to build a team, to develop other people, to really manage a diverse group and we're talking about diversity from South Africa to France, to Australia, to Malaysia.

Speaker 2: 14:58

It was just so amazing different time zones and trying to manage all of that and building a team where they supported each other as well. Right, and growing together, having fun together. It's the most fun job next to DE and I, but the most fun job ever and we're still in contact. So we still have a WhatsApp group, my direct reports Amazing, more than 10 years later, we're still chatting, right, uh, somebody's birthday, we'll always be wishing each other, or, if somebody has, uh, an achievement, we're all celebrating with that person. So, um, it's I think this is brought to me the early lesson around building trust and building relationships yeah, oh, I love.

Speaker 1: 15:44

I want to ask you next, then, how you went from that role into the DEI role, which was a global role. And the reason I'm asking is when I applied for the global DEI role, that I did. You know, I was really excited about it when I joined the company. I joined the company in a generalist HR leadership role and it was the first company I had worked for that had a DEI position, and I thought that was just amazing. My whole life had been in male, dominated or industrial kind of businesses. So to have, I thought, what an amazing company this is, that this work is so important that we have someone doing the job. So I applied for the job. I was like this job is mine. I was determined it's mine and I got the job, which was awesome.

Speaker 1: 16:39

And then there was there was some realities about the role that were very challenging, and I think one of the first ones was that I worked out fairly quickly that the role was there for compliance purposes, because we were a listed company and the stock exchange we were listed on there was requirements to report on gender and you know how many men and women. So there was a compliance requirement. But you know, our stats were going backwards. There were lots of challenges, um, and many days I found myself just working on powerpoint decks and spreadsheets, um and and not really getting to do the role I thought I was going to be doing. But how did you come to that job? I want to hear your story. Good question.

Speaker 2: 17:31

Yeah, it surprised me when one day I was travelling with a senior HR leader I think we were in Manila, that was one of my patches in terms of my HR ops role and we were in the car travelling to the office and he said have you ever thought about doing the DE&I role? And you should have seen my face. I was like oh no, no way. Like why are you even suggesting that I do the DE&I?

Speaker 2: 17:58

role so that was my very initial reaction and people always find that funny because they don't quite believe me. But I was really me. But I was really surprised because I was enjoying myself so much and I was really flourishing. I was thriving in my role. I had a great team. It was so fun, seriously and and fun not because it's just like easy work. It was really difficult work and I like that challenge, right, I like the challenge of working with very difficult situations and turning it around or building relationships. So it was.

Speaker 2: 18:32

It really surprised me that somebody even had that thought that I should think about another role. So that was my first reaction. And then I remember telling my boss because word got around to my line manager that I was interested in a D&I role and I had my year-end appraisal and I said whoever you heard that from, it is not true, I don't want a job. And you remember I mentioned at the start of my career I was the affirmative action officer for the Michigan municipal government. Nothing against them, right? But I mean I was doing a lot of what you had mentioned around governance, compliance, about metric-driven type KPIs, things like that. We need that. But I wasn't really enjoying. Yeah, the image didn't really attract me right versus what I was doing. And then I was like no way.

Speaker 2: 19:31

and then the other thing that played in my mind was in that role as the HR VP for operations, I had all the leverage. I had a huge team, so I was already doing a lot of work around inclusion, about belonging, making sure that people had a huge team. So I was already doing a lot of work around inclusion, about belonging, making sure that people had a voice. We were rolling out things for the first time and, because the centers were growing, many times were also the test bit for new policies, etc. So I found myself in that leadership role, already implementing and onboarding diverse groups of people because of growth, yeah. So so again in disbelief, I told my boss whoever said that to you, I'm not interested not leaving.

Speaker 1: 20:16

I'm happy here.

Speaker 2: 20:17

Right and I also saw within Shell and outside Shell. I mean, my predecessor had been in his role for a pretty long time, I think, uh, five and a half years or something, so he did a really good job, uh, but prior to him there were so many bros, people who came and went it was like the turnstile right and then, externally as well, people that had met they would be in that role and then they would leave and I thought I don't need that. No, it didn't look fun to me, right, yeah, so so second time around, I said no, and then, um, the the job was advertised. Uh, so in in shell, we have this internal or they. Now they, shell has an internal kind of roles that we advertise. And I was called by my previous line manager of DE&I to say would you consider so? Anyway, by then, the third time around, I thought, well, I'm still not really interested, but there must be something to this, there must be something. It keeps coming back to me, yeah, so I decided to take some time to reflect. I did say that to my line manager.

Speaker 2: 21:40

There were a few things that I thought I didn't appreciate about the job description, which I gave feedback to say. If I take the role. This is my feedback around some of the things that I would like to do differently or I would like to discuss, right, but I think, more importantly for me, it wasn't the money, it wasn't all of that. You know, those were not considerations. It wasn't the money, it wasn't all of that. Those were not considerations, right, it was much more around. What is the meaning of this and what is the legacy that I would want to leave behind? Firstly, for my girls, if I did this job, how would I do it so that they were proud of me? And what would I want to leave behind so that I did not belong to that group or, you know, stay in people's memory as the person who failed and left. Yeah, it was just that, you know, just wanting to make sure that I would take the right step for myself so that I could live with myself.

Speaker 1: 22:43

I love that you thought about that. I do some facilitation on leadership programs for women and often that concept of thinking about your legacy is foreign. Sometimes we just get caught up in the day-to-day and people don't think about okay, where is the meaning in this work?

Speaker 2: 23:02

What do I?

Speaker 1: 23:03

want to leave behind that I can be proud of, so I love that you considered that.

Speaker 2: 23:09

Yeah, Well, it's interesting because, yeah, I mentioned my mom and she was a huge inspiration for me in her life and what she's done At that point in time as well. In parallel, about a couple of years before that, I had started a travel concierge, a curated kind of bespoke travel concierge to Bhutan. Yeah, so when I decided to do that, I had to introspect as well to say do I have the time? Why do I want to do this? For vanity's sake? Is this being crazy or am I?

Speaker 1: 23:48

on to something. Was this your side hustle? It was my side hustle.

Speaker 2: 23:54

But again it wasn't for money and I think you know maybe the listeners would think like lyn, lynn is not very commercial because she never does anything for money.

Speaker 1: 24:04

I actually don't think that. I think you're probably very commercial because and that's why you've had the opportunities you've- had, but often the side hustle is about passion.

Speaker 2: 24:13

I think yeah yeah, so I, if I may, I will say a little bit about this I would love you to.

Speaker 2: 24:21

Yeah, so I was traveling, uh, in my job and there were two movies that really inspired me and I watched those. I only watched movies on the plane and it just happened that I had watched these two movies, um, back to back on two trips that had taken back to back as well. So the first one is called track and it's by. It's about this australian lady who had tracked through, uh, the desert, uh, with her two camels and the dog and how the life had changed.

Speaker 2: 24:55

Yeah, so this is um fantastic, the movie is fantastic. And then on my way to India I think I was on my way to Chennai or Bangalore I had watched another show called Wild, and it was about another lady who had taken a trekking trip across the Pacific Coast Trail and she had never trekked before. How good is that book? Oh well, you've watched the movie.

Speaker 1: 25:16

The book is amazing. Yeah, coast trail and she had never. How good is that book? Oh well, you've watched the movie. The book is amazing.

Speaker 2: 25:20

Yeah, I know, yeah so I was so inspired, and both these ladies had probably traveled for what? Six months a year and they had this life that their lives were transformed because of that, and I sat on the plane thinking I have to do something like that, yeah, and I thought, well, I don't have a year because I love my job, you know, if we remember. I thought, well, I can sacrifice three weeks, right, I can take some time off to do that. So, anyway, I spoke um so long story short.

Speaker 2: 25:51

I spoke to my friend we're having lunch my colleague and I said I want to go somewhere and hike and want to do it alone. Never done any high altitude hiking, but I feel that's what I want to go somewhere and hike and want to do it alone. Never done any high altitude hiking, but I feel that's what I want to do because of these two other women who inspired me. And he just randomly said why don't you go to Bhutan? And I thought Bhutan, where is that? So I googled and I checked on Bhutan and, before you knew it, I was Googling and then it wasn't that easy to find a travel agent or to get things done quickly. So I actually ended up messaging and contacting a travel agency from Bhutan and I wanted to travel alone, wanted to be there for two plus weeks, et cetera, and I ended up spending you know, sending a huge amount of money, you know wiring a huge amount of money, and I remember saying that, well, I trust that this money will actually go to my travel. And the person on the other side said, yes, it's a lot of money to trust someone with, yeah. So I literally then said my prayers and sent it through. Let's hope the universe looks after me exactly. So, anyway, I went and I was deeply touched.

Speaker 2: 27:11

Uh, the trekking experience, being alone, uh, the trekking in the mountains, challenging myself was very meditative, very spiritual. It opened up something else in me and when I was done with that trip, I came back and I thought, well, I need to get back to Bhutan, but in a different way. I need to bring people like me there, people who want to experience, just like me, with a purpose. I was deeply touched by the people that I met as well, so I ended up starting a travel agency after thinking through, speaking with friends, some of them discouraging me, but you know others who gave me a perspective, including I would like to share this because that was such a good perspective. So I asked one of my really good friends and he said how much money do you want to put on the line, right? How much money are you willing to lose?

Speaker 1: 28:10

Yeah, so I said well, let me think about that.

Speaker 2: 28:11

And he says well, think about that, and that amount of money that you're willing to lose would be what you start the business with. And if you end up not making it back, it's fine, because it's your education. Yeah, that was good advice, yeah because you said it's just like doing your MBA but you're doing it live, right, you're starting a business.

Speaker 2: 28:35

So that was the best advice for me at that point in time, because I decided, okay, how much money am I willing to put on the line and what do I want to learn from this and how do I want to start this. So I ended up curating uh trips. I had the agency for five years uh curating trips, adventure trips, like what I did, uh cultural tours, people who wanted to connect with the youth, and I did a couple of youth exchange programs as well, because in between I wanted to know the people there. So I stayed in all the hotels that I wanted to recommend, from the three-star to four-star to five-star.

Speaker 2: 29:14

So I have a lot of hotel general general manager friends yeah and I do model work as well, uh, on relationships, on customer service but I'm not a customer service expert, but in terms of relationships and, uh, anticipatory service, like what do you do and what are some things around building trust, etc.

Speaker 2: 29:39

So, um, I spent time doing that and I traveled back and made my connections and it was so meaningful for me I have to say this right, so a lot of this was selfish, yeah, but in terms of organizing for others, when others went and they got what they needed, then it was deeply satisfying. So so I think, in parallel to me thinking, should I take the, the job of the global de, and I hit and shell. I was thinking how am I going to do all of this, right? How how should I continue with my bespoke travel agency, which was, which was, a passion project, and how do I do this role and leave a legacy where my ghost would be proud of me and where I would give something back to the organization, right? So if I wanted to do it, I wanted to do it well how?

Speaker 1: 30:33

oh, so many questions, but I guess, what are you most proud of in your career, I mean up until writing your book? What are you? Are you happy with the legacy you've left like? Yeah talk to me a bit about that yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:52

Well, um, if there was anything to go by in terms of the farewell messages and the kind words that I received, I think that was what I was happy to leave behind. For example, the employee resource groups yeah, so the employee networks, people coming to me to say you have made a difference to my life in terms of my work life and what I bring home as well, so, so I had many people come to me to say you've really impacted how I interact with my family and friends outside of work. Yeah, and that's a huge, huge compliment for me. And I now say that one of my earliest reminders or example around leaving a legacy behind was Shell's very strong safety culture, and my question was how can I leave the same type of legacy where people would not just do that at work, but they will bring those conversations back to their friends and family outside of work as well? And to hear people say that was really affirming that that was one tick.

Speaker 2: 32:01

Yes, I think I wanted to leave behind, but I think, most of all, it was again the collaborations. I wanted the role to be on my terms, where it was human centric, where it was about the policies and more. So there were still things that were compliance-related, of course, reporting et cetera so I just took that as the work that I had to do, and I wasn't going to just focus on that but to make sure that the reporting was evidence-based. I spent a lot of time building on my predecessor, whom I said had done a good job, so I spent a lot of time as well making sure that it was deeply embedded the work that he had started to make sure that we really put the nail in.

Speaker 2: 32:51

So, for example, when I took on the role, when I first started in Shell, the senior women leadership uh representation was about eight percent and uh, about two years a year into the role. Yeah, so a lot of work had already been done and this is one thing that shell is really good at around the uh women representation at senior levels. Yeah so, uh, by the time I taken over, it was almost close to 50%, and we're talking about the most senior level, just the most senior level, but it starts somewhere right.

Speaker 2: 33:29

So it was about making sure that those things continue, but, I think, more importantly, to not have people look up to say, well, it's only a few people that got impacted. How about me? How about me? Right, I'm not female, I'm not, you know, majority. I'm diverse. You know, maybe I'm on the autism spectrum, or maybe I'm from the LGBTQ community or I have a disability. Where do I fit in?

Speaker 2: 33:58

Yeah, so I really spend a lot of time at the start just looking at what diversity means to other people and spend a lot of time with the employee networks. They were my first collaborators, so, for the success I've had in my role, I wouldn't have been able to do it without these people leaning in, kind of instructing me, me, teaching me what they know right from their lived experience. Yeah, so so I think that was one of my um again. Uh, you know early teaching moments. Yeah, the pride that I have around the resource groups that have become so strong when I left and that many of them were connected globally as well. Yeah, not just in the countries that they belong to, but they actually collaborate right across the countries.

Speaker 1: 34:54

Yeah, and externally. So at Wall-E we collaborated with your LGBTIQ plus group in the Netherlands with our group which was a global group, but we had a number of members in the Netherlands and that was super cool, and with other suppliers and customers of Shell, which was amazing.

Speaker 2: 35:14

Yeah, exactly so many fun moments and, I think, really connecting the very senior leaders to the DE&I agenda and requesting and partnering with them to be visible in terms of real human stories. Right, not just endorsing to say that I support this. But what about you? What's your, what's your story, what are you proud of or what do you want to support?

Speaker 2: 35:43

so I think one of the things which I really enjoyed as well was, uh, to pull together, uh, different groups, yeah, so including the media team in shell and the comms team, and started storytelling, and I think actually this is probably one of my strong points storytelling and to tell real stories, use real people and to have them strongly tell their story. And, Michelle, in that time that we did all this work, we had won many awards around our communications in big platforms and I can't really pronounce this. It's the Cannes Communication C-A-N-N-E-S.

Speaker 1: 36:28

Yeah, Cannes.

Speaker 2: 36:29

Yes.

Speaker 1: 36:30

In.

Speaker 2: 36:30

France yes, yeah, the festival we had won as well. The Clarence Award, quite a few awards for some of the films that we've made, and also in terms of leadership training. You know gold awards for our women's program. You know awards of recognition for our AI-driven programs as well for DE&I. So many many moments to be proud of, because I had the opportunity to work with wonderful colleagues who really just wanted for someone to reach out to say, hey, I need your help, right, and we've never done this before, but let's do it together. So I think those are my proud moments and I think those were my legacy and my the current person doing the global DE&I role. Now I'm sure she will do much better, yeah, so I think it's always about what's important about this role as well is to know when to leave and hand over to someone who can bring it to greater heights right, so don't hold the space when, when it's time to go, step back so that someone can, you know, do an even bigger and better role.

Speaker 2: 37:44

So that's the other thing that I wanted to I wanted to promise myself as well that when it was time for me to go, I will go. It's not about me, right. The job is about amplifying, and if someone else can make this an even bigger platform, then I.

Speaker 1: 38:03

How did you know it was time?

Speaker 2: 38:06

I started feeling really restless.

Speaker 1: 38:09

Okay.

Speaker 2: 38:13

Restlessness. Right, it was one of those things where I couldn't really understand. So it took me about two years of unraveling and wondering what's happening, and it was quite disturbing, to be honest, because I love my job. I really loved the opportunities to engage internally and externally. It was great to be able to work with so many different groups of people, people who are really appreciative of the work that I did, the travels that I did and connecting with different groups. There was just so much to be happy about.

Speaker 2: 38:45

So I was a little bit disturbed when I felt restless. Yeah, I didn't know where I was coming from, but I had also been very active externally. Yeah, so I've always been active in public speaking and also active in Singapore. So for many years already, I had also been an advocate for mental health, so I was visible from that point of view in terms of mental health, well-being in the workplace. So I spent quite a lot of time in that space as well, then getting involved in providing input, advice on um, education, about, you know uh, training and forming, uh future leaders. So I think naturally it came to that point where I was asked to sit on boards for this, uh, because it it wasn't something that I had planned to do in my retirement. Yeah, but it just kind of happened at the same time when I was feeling restless, where I also felt like the voice that I have was shifting. So, like I said, right, I think sometimes you'll find that your voice is the most important internally and I felt like I had come to a point where someone else could do a better job. Yeah, but then I felt as well that there was an opportunity for me to amplify my voice externally, that there was work to be done and I can feel the opportunity. So I think, because I had developed all those intuition from doing the job in Shell for six years and being quite connected externally as well, that I could feel and sense the opportunity externally. So I think all those came together and I've learned through my years of being in leadership positions that I should trust my intuition. So I did.

Speaker 2: 40:46

Yeah, it was really difficult because Shell has been such a good employer to me. It's family, everyone there is family to me and Shell had seen my girls grow up and my two girls now are adult children. The older one is married, the younger one is working in London. So they've seen my goals from toddler to adulthood. It's been your life. It was, yes, in my life. So it's really difficult to make that decision, to say this is it. I have to step away. It's almost like leaving home right to move somewhere else. So it was really that feeling. So I had to be ready.

Speaker 1: 41:28

I had to really question and pinpoint what this restlessness was and what I was going to do about it ah, okay, and then you wrote a book and, yes, one of the um, I mean, I just love the name of your book so much. And I think it relates to when I said you know what? You know, what are you really proud of? And you talked about those connections with different people. You didn't talk about these massive projects that you might have implemented, you talked about the connections with people and I guess, those conversations with people and in the work I've done, I've learned that this work is really about having conversations with people and it's just kind of it's like just placing this idea with someone and letting them think about it. And so that idea of tiny, tiny rice grains really resonated with me in this work. But how did the book come about? Like, was that something that had been bubbling away or yeah, tell us that story?

Speaker 2: 42:40

it's not off yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:41

So I, when I was doing this work, when I started, I think again, with all the engagements, I had people asking always like, do you have a manual on this or can you describe that? Can you define the E&I? What's the background? So I always had all these questions and then very quickly I saw I had people asking me would you write a book? And I was thinking like who would read my book, basically. But it always stuck with me that people had all these questions and I always was just a little bit frustrated that I didn't have a book that I could hand to them to say read this chapter 10.

Speaker 2: 43:14

You know and then come back to me exactly read that, reflect and come back to me. We'll have a discussion, right. So there was a little bit of that teacher in me as well. But so it was that. And then I always had this kind of conversation or a joke between my boss and me that I really would want to have a DE&I manual that could be like a handbook and really focus on the frontline leaders.

Speaker 2: 43:50

And I was really thinking about people who are on the shop floor, who are in plants, where they have handbooks, manuals, guidelines and it is like pocketbook, right, pull off from your pocket or from your back pocket.

Speaker 2: 44:03

So I was thinking I need a small book like this.

Speaker 2: 44:05

And I was telling him I need it read so that if they lose it, they put it on a table, they can find it immediately. So when I finally did write my book, I wanted it read because I wanted again to go back to my original intention of reading a book that can be pulled out easily, that is read, and when you read it you can just pick a chapter and there will always be questions that you can ask. So those are some things that I started to formulate because I was always feeling like it would be nice on my engagement. When people ask me questions, I could refer them to a certain book that they could all go to, so I don't have to always, you know, improvise or maybe, you know, I was thinking like sometimes I wish I could be a bit more consistent, yeah and, and you know, there were many things that I wrote and all that. So I was thinking it would be really nice if I put it all together as well, so that everyone could have everything, rather than that one thing that they asked me.

Speaker 2: 45:07

So it was it was always all these things in my mind as I travel, and I was in the role for about six years, so there was a lot of time when I was alone thinking about all this. Right, yeah, and you know, after a day of engagement always think so. Um, but I started getting serious about writing when an acquaintance of mine, who was connected to me by a journalist, had suggested that I write a book, and she connected me to Penguin, and Penguin then said the same thing to me to say will you write a book? And Penguin then said the same thing to me to say will you write a book?

Speaker 2: 45:49

And I thought, well, just like how it was when the line manager said would you think about the role? And I said no. So when someone asked me and Penguin, you know, asked like you know, you seem to have some material and since it was so-and-so, who connected you? Why don't you consider yeah? So I thought maybe I should. So I did think about it Again. I think my style is always to not think about it on my own, but to reach out to people that I trust and to also reach out to a few people who may have a very different point of view, to test it out right. So I did that, tested it right. So I did that, tested it and I decided to go for it. So that was again during that point in time where I was thinking should I stay? Should I go? If I go, what do I do? You know, how do I amplify my voice? Um, how can I stay relevant? How can I be credible? Uh, and what is that voice without shell?

Speaker 2: 46:49

yeah, so is it Lynn, or is it shell, you know? So those are all the questions I ask, and, and I think in a very genuine way, to see whether there was something else I could contribute. Yeah, and, and so I decided that the book would be part of that legacy that I could leave behind, because I always had wanted a pocket book instead of a pocket manual. So I set out to do that.

Speaker 1: 47:14

Do you have a favourite section in the book that you wrote?

Speaker 2: 47:18

Yes, of course. Well, there are all favourite sections, but I think my favourite section is the. I'm looking at my book now, so my favourite section is the. I'm looking at my book now, so my favorite is the prologue, but then I have to say as well when, uh, when you get my book, you know all of you are listening in when you do buy my book. The many things that are noteworthy the fore forward from my ex-boss. The preface, uh, which provides a bit of um background on why tiny rice grains and the story base.

Speaker 1: 48:00

Yeah, and it does bring out the asianness in terms of why I chose do you want to tell us about that, because, because, I think such a cool name yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:12

Well, I you know, when I started talking to people about me writing a book and calling it Tiny Rice Grains, the reception I got blew me away, because people started telling me stories about their connection to rice.

Speaker 1: 48:25

But it's not about the rice.

Speaker 2: 48:28

So I listened and I thought like wow, how interesting. And it was always about human connections it was always about the stories of family, of friends, of eating together, laughter, sadness. Uh, you know everything about caring for someone else, so you would know this, lisa, that in asia in this part of the world, when we get we, we ask people have you eaten?

Speaker 2: 48:54

yes, it's not really all the time, right? So firstly, in mandarin is actually about have you eaten rice, but then then it becomes have you eaten? But the question is not really about whether you have just eaten a meal, but it's about no, I'm showing care, yeah, showing care.

Speaker 2: 49:15

Have you eaten? Are you well? Are you looking after? Uh, you know, is there anything bothering you? So it's all this question that goes behind it, right, and it's also about so. Anyway, in this preface I had one of my friends, who is from India, read about his connection to rice and he talks about his grandmother and what other grandmothers do when they ask have you eaten? And sometimes whoever's being asked would just break down into tears, right, because that is such a profound question to ask and if you're not, well, you will just pour out all of your sorrows and your fears and all that right to grandma who has asked you um, have you eaten? So that's one of my favorites in preface. And then I like my prologue. And it's not very common I understood from the publisher, not very common to have a nonfiction book with a prologue, because that's usually for stories only and I said, no, I want a prologue.

Speaker 1: 50:20

And it's your book.

Speaker 2: 50:22

It's my book. Well, I mean, they were just doing their job right To tell me that's not very commonest, it's a business book, but it has story elements and that's the basis, right. The whole book is about stories and my stories and other people. So the prologue provides a bit of the background around my childhood where I grew up, my first impressions of kindness and inclusion from my grandfather, my parents. So I really enjoyed writing that oh yeah, so amazing amazing.

Speaker 1: 51:01

Do you know what else I like about your book? Because I have a number of books about diversity and inclusion, of course, and um, and because of my podcast, I often have authors come on and talk to me about their books and if I pulled all the books I've got on the shelf behind me about diversity and inclusion, they're pretty much all white and they've always got circles on them. Oh, I know, I don't know what that is, why, and for the most part they're not that interesting. And no, no, I know I mean some of them have some useful information, particularly if you're a diversity and inclusion practitioner and you're trying to work out how to do stuff. Some of of that's helpful and useful right, but a little bit dry. And then I look at your book and I was like it's red, it's got a bowl of rice and, I think, some chopsticks on the front.

Speaker 2: 51:59

Little chopsticks. Yeah, that is in my picture. Yeah, so yeah, but it's a bowl of rice and it's full, it's overflowing.

Speaker 1: 52:06

Yes, yes oh yeah, but it's a bowl of rice and it's full, it's overflowing, yes, and I just think that imagery and and and, because I I've lived in um Asia and so I I kind of get, I get what you're doing there and I just think it's really lovely, really lovely you.

Speaker 2: 52:23

well, I have to say as well, there's also the food element, right? So many Asians are foodies, singaporeans are foodies. That includes me. So it was very natural for me to think about a book title that includes some type of food somewhere. Yes, because there's so much symbolism around food.

Speaker 1: 52:42

Oh, my goodness, yes, and I miss the food and the variety of food in Singapore. I miss the supermarkets like everything I miss, and living in New Zealand at the moment, I mean the supermarkets are just like not great and there are some good restaurants, but it's not Singapore.

Speaker 2: 53:00

So let me tell you that New Zealand has great wines, right, that's something that Singapore doesn't have.

Speaker 1: 53:06

That is true, that is true, that is true. So where can people buy your book?

Speaker 2: 53:11

All right, okay, so it will be launched by location. So right now, you can preorder your book on Amazoncom. For Singapore, malaysia, for the Philippines, it's under fully booked and then it will be launched over a series in terms of and I'll provide that in terms of your write-up, lisa. So I want to make sure that everyone gets the right information. So, for example, in October it will be launched in Europe and then in America, I think. I think we'll confirm that, right, it will be November, and then by December it will be Australia, new Zealand as well, oh, and I forgot very important country as well India, and that also would be available. October, november timing on Amazon and Flipkart yeah, so most of the others will be Amazoncom. Yeah, so I'm really excited because it means that everyone can get a copy, either a physical book or e-book.

Speaker 1: 54:18

Yeah, so that will be available as well. Yeah, and I will put in the show notes all of that detail and the links for where people can go If people want to get in contact with you, maybe to talk about your book or for you to do a keynote, do you do those? I should have asked that first. Yes, I do.

Speaker 2: 54:38

Yes, great, I do do keynotes. Yeah, I've done a few quite recently, so that's the other thing that I've done. Since I've left the company, left Shell, I've done keynotes, leadership engagements for companies, and I've been really lucky that those have been paid as well. So I think, again, right, compliments in terms of the book that I've written, the work that I've done previously, but also right now in terms of a different platform to amplify my voice through the boards that I sit on. So I think it's come together nicely and I think that was that restlessness that I had, that I needed to shift the platform into something which could be a benefit to a broader group of people Still part of the ecosystem. Yeah, but you know, maybe a bit of discomfort for me, but certainly it's helping me to grow as well. Right, so I continue to learn and grow. Yeah, it's definitely key note.

Speaker 2: 55:45

So back to your question where can people contact me On LinkedIn question, where can people contact me, um, on linkedin? Yeah, so you would see my name, uh, on linkedin is lynn r lee. R is for renee, that's my middle name. Yeah, so, um and I, and I put lynn r lee and my book is lynn r lee as well. So there's a little bit of background too. So, very quickly, many people would always think that my full name is Lin Li yeah, as in the Chinese name Lin Li yeah, and I'll say no, no, it's Lin, surname is Li yeah, but they, you know a lot of people get confused because my name Lin L-Y-N is very short, yeah, and my surname L is very short as well, right so.

Speaker 2: 56:25

I think, to avoid any confusion, it's Lynn R, lee R for Renee, but I wanted to keep it short and sweet, so there you go.

Speaker 1: 56:37

Oh, I love that, I love that and I will put all those contact details in the show notes as well. Yes, Thank you so much for speaking with me today, Lynn. You're a bit of an idol of mine, and so it's been really lovely to share your journey and and your book. Yeah, Thank you.

Speaker 2: 56:56

Lisa, and you have no idea, when you reached out to me, it was very important for me as well, very heartwarming. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you helping to amplify my book, the Voice for us, together to make sure that we don't forget about diversity, equity and inclusion.

Speaker 1: 57:17

Yeah, and I hope you get that book into the US, because if there's a country that needs it, that's the one We'll see.