A Dog Called Diversity
A Dog Called Diversity
Thriving with Bipolar....with Katie Rickson
Katie Rickson shares her journey living with bipolar disorder, from diagnosis after giving birth to her daughter to finding meaning through advocacy and running her own business with built-in flexibility.
She shares the neurological differences of bipolar, the impact of hormonal cycles on symptoms, and her journey from shame to self-acceptance through reframing her condition as neurodivergence rather than illness.
Listen in to learn about:
• What bipolar disorder actually is, including the differences between mania and depression
• How hormonal cycles affect bipolar symptoms
• The importance of self-compassion and accepting emotional fluctuations
• Sensory modulation as a practical management technique
• Reframing bipolar from "mental illness" to neurodivergence
• Advocating for workplace accommodations and flexible structures
Find Katie here and at Business in the Bath or connect with her on LinkedIn. Katie offers educational talks about bipolar disorder for organisations, with special availability during Mental Health Awareness Week starting October 6th.
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Welcome to A Dog Called Diversity, and this week I have such an interesting guest. Her name is Katie Rickson and I am going to get her to introduce herself, but before I do that, I thought I might talk to you about how we met, because we saw a post on Facebook where there was a lunch on a Monday in a suburb. I don't go to very much and I don't think Katie probably goes too much either. No, and we went along to lunch and we were sitting near each other and it was such a delight to meet Katie and learn about all the work that she does. So welcome to the podcast, katie.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you, lisa. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know it's so nice and it was. It felt fortuitous that we met at lunch and then we were both in Wellington at Electrify Tiroa conference together, which was really cool. So yeah, so yeah, I feel like I've got a friend again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's lovely. It was so nice to meet you at Hobsonville and, yeah, and then again at Electrify. Yeah, lots of things in common as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lots of things, lots of things. And before we get into you and who you are, I just wanted to highlight a piece of writing, uh, that I found, um of yours, which I loved, and it's called why, why? Chickens are the answer for me and I will link it in the show notes. But now I want chickens, katie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you should get them. They're awesome. I should, I should, but all I've got is two balconies.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah yeah, I'm going to send a link to that your piece to my husband and go okay, our next place needs to be partly in the country so we can have chickens, but it was, um, a really beautiful piece of writing, which is part of the work you do. Uh, but would you like to introduce yourself?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, thank you lisa. Yeah, so I, um, I'm a mum to a nine-year-old daughter. I am a copywriter and editor. I also write a sub stack and I go into organisations and teach them about bipolar. So I wear a few different hats. I love the variety of it all. And, yeah, it was, I've lived with bipolar for most of my adult life, but it wasn't until after the birth of our daughter that I was formally diagnosed. So it was that past postpartum time when I received that formal diagnosis. Yeah, and after getting the diagnosis and after the kind of the first quite bumpy year of my daughter's life, started writing for other people and then realized that I had a story to share and started writing more for myself as well. So I write poems, I write essays and, um, I also have started writing interviews with other successful people with bipolar because I'm really interested to see how they make work and business work for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I've been so interested to have you on the podcast because I've had one other person on the podcast talk about their experience with bipolar and they were a man, and so part of my curiosity was around is there a different impact for women who are diagnosed with bipolar? And I do want to get to that. But I wanted to start with how did your diagnosis come about? And you said it was after the birth of your baby. Did you have symptoms before that? Could you tell us a bit about, I guess, your diagnosis and then what bipolar actually is?
Speaker 2:Yes, so, probably looking back in hindsight, I was starting to have bipolar symptoms or experiences from puberty. I used to worry quite a lot as a child and I used to have recurring dreams and um, and then I did go through bouts of depression, but not knowing what it was, not really having a label to it. Um, and when I worked in a in a corporate, I actually was, uh fell quite unwell, um, I kind of cycled in between these moments of depression and and mania. Um, I wasn't really properly medicated so I wasn't really receiving the right kind of treatment. Um, and it wasn't until um was it six years later after that time that I was diagnosed pregnancy and birth and the sleep deprivation of being a mum really brought on. So instead of having postpartum depression, I actually went into postpartum mania and then psychosis.
Speaker 2:So if I can just explain what mania is because I think most people do understand what depression is now but mania is, um a period of really uh, elevated thinking and behavior. So uh, racing thoughts like the less need or want to sleep, so lots of insomnia, perhaps hypersexuality, so you have a heightened sex drive, the desire to spend more money, so quite impulsive spending. One time I got into quite a lot of debt and spent a lot of money. One time I got into quite a lot of debt and spent a lot of money and, yeah, sometimes delusion of grandeur, so you have more confidence in your abilities than so. Yeah, there's quite a few different things and kind of a heightened spirituality as well. So like I felt really connected to God and as if God was kind of trying to get me to do things and yeah, yeah so it's um quite an unusual experience.
Speaker 2:They say that um being manic is similar to like what the brain goes through when you take amphetamine. There's that kind of change in the brain. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I guess, when, when you first have a baby, often that experience is new. You don't, you don't know what it's going to be like until you've had a child and you're having to look after it and you're not sleeping. I used to have to say to myself no one died from lack of sleep, like to get through each day if you hadn't slept through the night. But I'm wondering, like, how did you know that this was different than perhaps the next person having a child and having to deal with all the challenges of having a newborn? You know, how did you get diagnosed? I guess is the question what was the impetus?
Speaker 2:There was quite a few weeks building up to it, but I actually went down to Wellington with my baby because my in-laws lived down there, and I went for a period of I couldn't sleep at all and I think I I was awake for 55 hours and it wasn't because my daughter wasn't sleeping, it was because I, I just couldn't fall asleep. Um, and thankfully my, and thankfully my mum-in-law she's a renowned music therapist lecturer, so she kind of knew the signs. Because that's one of the things about mania is you start to lose a bit of insight. You're like, well, there's no problem here, I'm fine, it's everyone else that can't keep up. But yeah, it was the and, but it was starting to get quite distressing not being able to go to sleep and um, and you know, some suicidal ideation was coming in at that stage as well. Um, so I was able to go and see a psychiatrist while I was down there, um, but that I didn't get diagnosed.
Speaker 2:At that point it came back, um, and yeah, I went for a whole series of things. I, uh, the maternal mental health crisis team got involved and I was assigned another psychiatrist. So it was through that process that, um, that I got diagnosed and I was also hospitalized during that time as well, so I was committed under the mental health act, um, which was a really sad and traumatic time because my daughter, my daughter didn't come with me, so I was still trying to continue breastfeeding. I was still trying to continue um pumping and giving her milk and, um, I had. I had to do that in the hospital and it was a very strange, weird time. But, yeah, it was during that period that I got the diagnosis, which was the turning point.
Speaker 1:How long were you in hospital for?
Speaker 2:I think it was for the minimum of the time under the Mental Health Act, I think, which was 10 nights Okay, 10 nights Okay 10 nights.
Speaker 1:yeah, I can't imagine how scary that must have been to be committed under a piece of legislation. Was that helpful? I mean it was helpful being diagnosed, but was it a helpful period, like, did it mean when you were released?
Speaker 2:at least you could move on a little bit, or um the place that I was in might have been the best place for me, but the means of how I got there it's traumatic. Yeah, um, like if I got that bad again, I would want to voluntarily go into hospital. Um, it was the fact that, uh, a doctor, a locum doctor, committed me. I had to sign a piece of paper, I had to get into the car, leave my husband and baby behind. Nobody knew where it was going and it was just, uh, um, yeah, the process was not very, uh, I don't know, not very calming. It didn't feel very um, therapeutic the process of getting it doesn't feel human.
Speaker 2:Yeah, kind and there's a lot of advocacy now to try and change that um that process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I know you were telling me before your daughter's nine, I know you were telling me before your daughter's nine yeah, what, what has changed for you since then? Like, do you have a way for to to manage bipolar, so that I guess you don't have the mania and perhaps you don't have the depression? Like, how, how do you manage?
Speaker 2:yeah all. Yeah, it's a real process and the first year was definitely a lot of ups and downs and you kind of reassess oh who am I, how does this change me, what kind of mum does this make me? And you go through a real kind of period of self-analysis. But it was when I started to realize that I could share my story, that, yeah, that sharing my story gives other people the permission to to do the same, um, that it gave me a real kind of purpose and a meaning to to the situation.
Speaker 2:Um there, there was a time when I was, when I was really unwell during that postpartum period, I had a thought go through my head um, something beautiful will come from this. I remember it coming into my head like really vividly and and so being able to make meaning from it and and write about it and tell my own story, kind of, yeah, it makes it have a purpose. So I really kind of started to step out of the shame that could be attached to this diagnosis shame that could be attached to this diagnosis and I saw it as a I don't know an opportunity to educate myself on what bipolar was and start to extend self-compassion to the behaviors that I went through in past manic and depressive states like it wasn't my fault.
Speaker 2:but it also allowed me to take accountability. You know I I had a name for it so I could start taking accountability for how I wanted to heal and recover and integrate it into my life nice.
Speaker 1:Have you? Have you learned about the differences in the? I don't know if I should call it a condition or it's not. It's not really a disease.
Speaker 2:I think condition is a good word.
Speaker 1:Condition is good. Okay, is there a difference in how women and men experience the condition and the reason? I ask that is because women have fluctuations in hormones both over the course of their life and and both through the course of a month. Um, and I wondered the impact on on the hormones on bipolar is is there a difference?
Speaker 2:um, I can say from my experience that I definitely notice the, the bipolar symptoms, uh that in the two weeks before my period. So I I can, um, quite drastically feel different about my life in that luteal phase, and day two or day three of my period, all the kind of good things start flooding back again and I'm like, oh, I actually don't hate my life, it's such a relief.
Speaker 2:And whether that's bipolar or whether it's um, we were talking about that before. Uh, there's another condition called pmdd, which is a premenstrual dysphoric disorder. Um, so that's when, um, you can get really, really depressed just before your period. So, and it can affect your, your quality of your life and your ability to function. So once I realized that there was a bit of a pattern to it, I was able to kind of create more buffers. So I used to call it my tough week, but now I call it my be gentle week.
Speaker 2:So that's a time when I try not to put like too much pressure on myself in that time or not have tight work deadlines, um, have a bath, uh, go to bed a bit earlier and just treat my body like really kindly, um, and inevitably it feels better when I don't try and push through that time, when I actually listen and say, okay, this is just the rhythm of it and it will pass. So that's given me a lot of comfort, knowing that, okay, there's a connection to the hormones and, yeah, we've got through the hard times in the past, we can get through it again this month. But there there does need to be more awareness about it, especially, I think, for women, like we're expected to have the same kind of continuous energy levels as men. And yeah, having bipolar and PMDD, it's just not. It's just not doable. So you have to. I have to be realistic about that yeah, nice.
Speaker 1:Do you actually um like I know there are women who will track their um cycle and will. They will only put some activities in some parts of their cycle. Do you do that?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I don't track the whole cycle, but I will put in the the calendar like this is the week that I expect it to be harder.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, um, and when I don't do that and I look back and I go, oh, that's why, that's why I felt like that yeah, like it's funny, right, because I think I think, uh, women all the time do that where you have a week where everything is shit. You feel really teary. It's awful obviously not to the level that you experience and then a day or two into our period we go oh, I was just premenstrual and it's uh, it's intriguing to me that we forget every month that that we might have that bit.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, yeah but I do find I'm quite creative, like um. It was in my premenstrual phase that I wrote that chickens piece, um, so I do tend to feel more poetic and more kind of in touch with my sensitive side during that time. So trying to harness that in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I love that. I love that. I wondered you, you, you told us about that. Your diagnosis came after having your daughter and obviously at the end of your pregnancy and once you give birth, there's, uh, huge hormone changes during that time. Had you experienced mania before that, or do you think it was that onset of all of those hormones that changed during that time? Yeah, no, I definitely experienced mania before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was 2009, 2010, when I was working at that corporate job that I was experiencing mania. That was when I was I was in a decent, paid job, but I was still getting myself into debt because of this kind of uncontrollable spending, um, and, but it didn't have a, it didn't have a name to it. At that stage, we were still calling it depression and anxiety. Um, it was kind of muddied by the fact that I was trying to get my residency as well. Um, so you have to obviously pass a whole load of medicals and, um, and I had to stay at that job in order to get my residency. So, um, it was quite a like, I call it a bit of a pressure cooker situation. Yeah, and, and mania and depression can be triggered by stress, like stress is as well as sleep. Stress is another big kind of trigger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um but it's um. The average time it takes for somebody to get a proper diagnosis of bipolar is nine and a half years. So from the date of your first episode to date when you get formally diagnosed is is, on average, nine and a half years.
Speaker 1:So my experience wasn't uncommon why does it take so long to diagnose?
Speaker 2:um, um, well, I I'm not sure, but I wonder if it's because, um, it's kind of overdiagnosed as, uh, depression. Um, the other thing is I wonder how much um insight people have when they go through mania. I certainly lost insight and it takes somebody on the outside to say, hey, I'm worried about you, like, and I think, because people are generally worried about the depression, uh, when they come out the other side and and you experience mania, you think, oh, I'm well again, because you can feel like full of life. You just think, oh, maybe this is just the bubbly side of me, um, and also maybe the stigma and the lack of understanding around bipolar. Um, maybe you don't want to get the diagnosis. I'm not sure. I'm just kind of saying that these might be some of the reasons why, um, yep yeah, have you learnt how common bipolar is as a condition like?
Speaker 1:do many people get diagnosed?
Speaker 2:um, in New Zealand I think it's, uh, two in a hundred, so yeah, about two percent. So it's fairly common. And there are different types of bipolar. So there's bipolar one, which is the type I have, where you experience depression and a manic episode and you may have psychosis, and bipolar two you have may have longer depressive episodes and you have hypomania. So it still kind of can be quite destructive, but it might not be so heightened as the full-blind mania. And there's another one called rapid cycling, which you kind of cycle quickly in between mania and depression. Um, so yeah, none of them are necessarily easier to live with than the other that they can all impact your life um quite a lot yeah so how?
Speaker 1:how do you live with bipolar like? What are Like? What are the ways you manage yourself so that I guess you can function in the world and that you're not having the mania and maybe you're not having the depressive episodes as much as possible? Like, what are the things that you do?
Speaker 2:I think running my own business has been massive for me because I don't fit into the kind of rigid nine to five full-time lifestyle and kind of going with going with my energy rather than against it, so I can really work well under sprints and projects and deadlines. But if it's a consistent kind of on, that's sometimes where I struggle. Um, so being kind to myself and, and in that, um, compassion has been a big one for me. So being really compassionate towards myself, it's still a work in progress. Um, seeing my counsellor, um, okay, and uh, having baths and and looking after my body as well, like um, eating well and trying to sleep well.
Speaker 2:Um, being creative I love being able to write and be able to write poetry. Um, and also having a really good support network like I've got a really great family on both sides and my friends as well, and being able to talk about it openly and being accepted and accepting myself is a real big one for me. Um, what else I used to? I haven't done it for a while, but I used to love doing amateur dramatics and being on stage and, like I'm quite an emotional, sensitive person, so being able to put that into a character has always been really cool, yeah, and being accepting of the fact that a happy, fulfilling life doesn't mean that I'm free from all symptoms.
Speaker 2:So, just being realistic, that you know, I may experience, uh, depression or um. Hopefully I'm protected from full-blown mania and a really bad depression because I'm on medication now, so that has been a big protection. But I still have days where I feel really anxious or I feel really down. And just knowing that that's okay, that it doesn't mean I failed, it doesn't mean I've slipped back, it doesn't mean I've relapsed. And I've also realized having a lot of grace for my emotions, like I'm allowed to feel grief without calling it depression and I'm allowed to feel happy without calling it mania. So not trying to pathologize, being a human, you know. So allowing myself to be able to feel those emotions and process those emotions without immediately jumping to oh no, I'm becoming unwell again yeah, oh, I love that and I think I think just learning to do that.
Speaker 1:Anyway, whether you have, um, something different about your brain on or not, um, you know, I often think in when, when you do yoga and meditation, it's about you know, it's just a thought, or it's just an emotion and being able to think about. Well, that's just an emotion I'm feeling today and and it will pass, and I think that's helpful for everyone, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah and being able to feel it rather than try and fix it straight away.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I love that. It's okay to feel it and and then maybe the next day you move on, yeah, or the next, whatever that is yeah. I know that part of your work is you've started to talk a lot more openly about your experience with bipolar. What was the, what was the catalyst for that? What? What made you kind of bare your soul, I guess, to maybe groups of people that you don't even know? Um.
Speaker 2:I think it was my mother-in-law encouraging me. Like um, the first time I shared my story was at a symposium for service users and, uh, in academia. So it was people that um had lived experience and they were working in academia, um, or they were training people. Um, and I got to speak in front of a group of I think about 200 people. It was a um had a six minute slot and um, it was called um lullabies in a time of psychosis, so I talked about how music really helped helped me when I was feeling really unwell, and so that was a real opportunity. And then, um, yeah, it was that started the ball rolling.
Speaker 2:And then, slowly, from there, um, it was in 2020 that I created my compassion poetry website, which is a home for my essays and um poems. But then I also realized that lots of people were resonating with the story or they wanted to hear more from it. So I think it was around about that time that I started to um speak to more organizations, try and get on more podcasts and yeah, so it was a. It was a slow burner, but I think it started to pick up momentum in the last few years as I've kind of stepped into that identity more and more. Um, I think when I first started, I wanted to be behind a pseudonym that's why I created Compassion Poetry but then gradually being able to put my name to my story, um, yeah, so I guess I've got quite a large digital footprint now in terms of you know which is fantastic, but it's different telling your story like in person to actually having it online, forever on the internet.
Speaker 2:So I had a lot of like vulnerability hangovers for a long time like am I sharing too much? Like like once you've shared it, you can't really go back and unshare it. So sometimes I liken it to like coming out like it's each time you tell your story. It's like you're coming out and stepping into yourself more and more and more yeah, has it?
Speaker 1:have you had any, I guess, backlash or challenges with sharing your story? No, I haven't everything.
Speaker 2:Everything has been so positive and yeah, yeah, I've not had I. Um, sometimes people of the older generation are like are you sure you want to share this? I think maybe it's still the stigma, or they're worried about me. Like we didn't tell my nan in the UK till quite a bit later because we didn't want to worry her. So sometimes sharing with family might be trickier, like you have to, yeah, be quite delicate about how you you say it. Yeah, let's not worry them.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, it could be easy with, easier with strangers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes, yeah, yeah like when I went to electrify like um, because I could have we. You know, we had the lanyards at electrify. Um, yeah, I, I registered to go like back when it was like super early bird and I couldn't remember if I'd registered under my copywriting or my um in the bar and I must have been brave because I registered under business in the bath, which forced me to tell all the strangers that I met what it was about.
Speaker 2:So I told so many people that I had bipolar and I was like, oh, wow, okay, um, so it was an interesting experience for me yeah, that would have been very interesting because you're face to face with strangers, one-on-one, and yeah, yeah, because normally at networking you just talk about the writing side of things and, yeah, I kind of I don't know hide a little bit behind that.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's so interesting. Um, I don't consider myself a writer, but I I do write a lot of content right, and whenever I share something personal or a bit more vulnerable, that's when people will reply to my newsletter, or it's when they'll write a comment on LinkedIn, and it's usually very positive. The more you share of yourself, people connect and want to know a bit more, which I think is super cool. I'd like to know, when you go into organizations and share your story, yeah, what are the kinds of things you talk about and what are the kind of questions do you get?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, so I go in and I share my story. I think it's really important to provide that lived experience perspective. So I spend a decent chunk of time sharing my story and how I got to the point of diagnosis and I explain what bipolar is about and the kind of risks related to bipolar. Like, sadly, um, people with bipolar are 20 times more likely to die by suicide than the average person, um, so that's why I feel it's really important to share that story, um, and then I go on to talk about, um, the self-compassion that I talked about and some, uh, have you heard about, do you know, sensory modulation?
Speaker 2:No, so it's something that I learned when I was under maternal mental health.
Speaker 2:It's when you use your you're probably doing it naturally already but it's when you use your, your senses, to kind of regulate your feelings. So that's why, like, having a bath, like being in the warm, hot water, regulates your body, um, and it can kind of bring you down from that heightened state. Um, other things are like, obviously, your taste, so, um, sucking on a lolly or chewing gum and touch, so massaging hand cream into your hands. So these are things that are really kind of accessible, easy and not expensive and you can kind of tailor it. So for me, um, cognitive behavioral therapy didn't really work, like I couldn't talk myself out of these thoughts because they were. They were too loud and too fast, so I used my body instead to regulate myself. So sensory modulation has been really cool, and I also talk about different ways that you can identify with bipolar, with bipolar, so you can see it as a mental illness or you can see it as a form of neurodivergence, and you can also see it as a form of mad pride.
Speaker 2:So, um, I love that mad pride that's yeah so there's a real movement for people to that mad pride is all about claiming who you are and being like you know you need to listen to our voices and nothing about us. Without us, that's all, and how reframing it can also be really helpful in your recovery. So I see bipolar more as a neurodivergence than a the mental illness now, um, so it's like um, okay, my brain is a bit different to a neurotypical. What do I need to be able to thrive? And yeah, um. So it's not about fixing me or saying that I'm wrong. It's about knowing who I am and what I need.
Speaker 2:And this is part of the talk. I talk about accommodations and adjustments, so what organisations can do to help their employees thrive and how they can be there for each other, how they can have the capacity to hold space for other people. And I talk about how you know when somebody's unwell, we always encourage them to reach out for help. But sometimes, when you already feel like a burden or you already feel like everything is hard, reaching out for help can feel really difficult. So being able to everything is hard, reaching out for help can feel really difficult. So being able to um notice when somebody is um maybe behaving slightly differently or struggling more at work, being able to actually be like hey, can I take you out for coffee? I'm concerned about you, can we chat? Um. So just being creating that really safe space for all different brains yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think I love um.
Speaker 1:Oh, there was a couple of things there I wanted to ask about, but one was just commenting on the, the mad pride.
Speaker 1:What I love about that is that there there are times when you're going to be so good at things that you know you talked about being creative during the luteal phase and um, and that's so valuable to the work you do and would be valuable to organizations if you worked, if you didn't work for yourself, um, but I did want to ask about the, the accommodations in organizations.
Speaker 1:I mean, a lot of the stuff is simple, things you can do, I think, asking someone let's go for a coffee, I want to check in with you, that's, you know, all fantastic stuff, but the structures of organizations the more rigid nine to five. We still have many organizations who struggle with understanding about flexible work, understanding about people just don't want to work at home because they can do the washing, or they don't want to be in the traffic, right. There's other reasons that you know, at different times you're going to need to be at home. It's just, or you might not be able to start work till 10 o'clock or you might be feeling creative and want to work at 8 o'clock at night. And you know what do you talk to organisations about that kind of stuff, that real structure of work piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah or do you? That's a great question. It's difficult, right? I really do want to talk more about the structural side of things. It's almost like a kind of second conversation to have after I've done this piece, because I don't want. I want to challenge people, but I don't want. I want to challenge people, but I, I don't want. How do I word this?
Speaker 1:just say it.
Speaker 2:I don't. I don't want them to be like defensive about the way they're doing things. So I I wonder if my talk is the best place to talk about the structural things. I totally agree that the structural things are the things that need to change, but I wonder if that's more of a workshoppy kind of. I know that's definitely your zone and yeah, I don't know, I would like to be able to do that more, but I've got 90 minutes and that conversation kind of deserves a bit longer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's a good point and I maybe in my next one I'll try and integrate that a bit more, because it's not about getting the individual to mask or or fit something else, like I'm not about that at all, and I think that leaders need to read books like the four-day working week and work school hours, because then they can see that they can have the best of both worlds they can have the productivity and they can have the great culture, but they can also give that that flexibility. So I think it's definitely needed, but I wonder it's it's part of a bigger kind of conversation. I don't know, that feels a bit like a cop-out, but I don't know how to get all of the juicy stuff into 90 minutes and maybe you don't, and that's okay.
Speaker 1:But I guess I think about a lot of the work I do around diversity and inclusion, and changing the structure of work is not just great for people who are neurodivergent, it's not just great for women with young children, it's not just great for people who have elderly parents that they might need to look after, it's not just great for, you know, people who have other things in their lives and other commitments that they're trying to. You know it's. It's kind of this fundamental thing about we can't continue to work in this nine to five way because it's not working and I don't think humans were designed for that. And and I'm probably pretty direct and I've probably had some success with being direct with some senior leaders around some of their views on things and being able to kind of turn it around. So but yeah, if you're doing an education talk and you don't want to get people defensive, then I understand, but I think, yeah, we also need to be smacking some people over the head.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, think, yeah, that would be helpful. I wondered. I talked to lots of, uh, people who are neurodivergent on this podcast and that has become more and more since COVID. I I think COVID because we put people at home who do knowledge work, like you and I do. It meant for many people who were struggling in the nine to five, who were masking, who were trying to do everything to fit into that kind of environment. It meant that when we were all forced to be at home that people started to get diagnosed. People were much more comfortable working in that way and I wondered had you noticed, in terms of there being shame around having something, a condition or something that might be termed as a mental health disorder? Have you seen more acceptance since COVID, because that did create mental health challenges for most people, I would say has there been more acceptance, do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not so sure. I think there definitely is a lot more conversation about than they used to.
Speaker 2:Just seeing on LinkedIn how more people are willing to share, that they've got bipolar. I think people are much more willing to share and, like you said earlier, the feedback that they're getting is overwhelmingly positive. Yeah, I think stigma still exists. Um, so there's still a lot of work to be done. Um, yeah, I think people are more receptive to this conversation. Yeah, it's hard to know, because I don't know if I ever felt I didn't ever receive stigma or negative feedback, or people felt that and they didn't share it. I don't know, yeah, so it's hard for me. It I don't know. Yeah, so it's hard for me to kind of compare the two. Okay, yeah, I definitely think that people are much more open since COVID to like the flexible work and to talk about accommodations and structural things that they can do as leaders to support their staff better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. It's good to hear right, yeah, so if people want to engage you to learn more about bipolar, what, what does that look like? What, what? What sort of things do you do in organizations?
Speaker 2:cool, um, so I provide a lunch and learn, so a 90 minute talk on on the subjects that, um, we discussed earlier and, and more so, um, I'm really trying to get, uh, a fully booked week for mental health awareness week this year, which is starts on the 6th of october yeah, yes, I'd love to see you fully booked for that week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I've got, I've got one booking and, yep, obviously four more that I'd love to fill, and if they go to my website, businessinthebathconz, and there's a space to register your interest, so register your interest there and I'll get back in touch with you really quickly. And the other way is I post pretty regularly on LinkedIn, so it's Katie Rickson on LinkedIn, and I also write semi regularly on Substack um, so it's called uh, business in the Bath, substack um, and so I share a lot more in depth about my life and bipolar. And I've started a series of interviewing other people that I've connected with with bipolar, because, although I talk about my lived experience, everybody's experience of it is different. And I'm really interested in, like, the intersectionality of it all, like what's it like to be uh in a minority group and live with bipolar, or what's it like to live with another with a disability and bipolar, like, yeah, um, I'm pretty privileged as a white middle-class woman so my experience of stigma is probably a whole lot less than, say, a person of color.
Speaker 2:Yeah so I'm really interested to hear how bipolar kind of intersects with those other kind of identities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing that, because I can imagine if you, if you have bipolar, you're a person of color, maybe you live in poverty. You know there's a whole lot of social challenges that go together. Yep, like, what does that look like? Yeah, like you know, can you access good care? Can you afford good care, all of those things? Yeah, cool, yeah, I will put all those links in the show notes. Also, tell us about the other work you do. So you're a copywriter, so what kind of work do you do there?
Speaker 2:So I started off mainly writing websites, but I really enjoy telling people's stories. I really enjoy interviews. I really enjoy telling people's stories. I really enjoy interviews. So I write mostly content so blogs, case studies, annual reports and I also help people. If they want to ghostwrite their book, I can help ghostwrite the whole book or chapters for them and I also do some editing as well. So if people feel quite confident with writing but they want to extra peer revise, I can help people out with that as well. So if people feel quite confident with writing but they want to extra peer revise, I can help people out that as well. So I really enjoy telling stories and meeting people and yeah, nice, and what's that?
Speaker 2:business called. So it's my name and so it's Katie Rixon, copywriting and editing. I also wanted to mention that I'm writing a book at the moment, which is it's a long process when I'm trying to do all of the other things, but it's slowly coming together how I've built my business really and how being self-employed could be a really good route for people with bipolar and other forms of neurodivergence, because of the flexibility and the ability to kind of design your own rhythms and routines that keep you well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. When are you planning on your book being out? Do you know yet?
Speaker 2:I'm putting you on the spot. The goal is to be published in my 30s, so I turn 40 next year.
Speaker 1:So um, before I turn 40 well when you, when your book's ready, come back on the podcast and I would love to learn more about what you've written. So, thank you, yeah, that'd be cool, right? Yeah, oh well, thank you so much, katie. It's just been lovely speaking with you today and I know that when people come on the podcast and share their story, I get people going. Thank you so much. I learned so much from that. I've got a friend with bipolar, or I've got a, an aunt, or um, and having that insight is really helpful.
Speaker 2:So, thank you, yeah, and thank you so much for for having me and all the work that you're doing in the space and for reminding me that I I should probably have that structures and systems conversation in there as well. That was a good reminder.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I'm a very kind of direct Australian so I can get myself in trouble in New Zealand because of being so direct. So maybe don't take too much of that. Maybe it's just a little nudge. You know, thinking about flexible work and allowing people to, you know, manage their work time as they need to is really helpful too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe tiptoe around it a bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Direct Australian that I am.