A Dog Called Diversity
A Dog Called Diversity
How to transition gender.....with Emery Fung
In life it can take time to know who you are, and how you need or want to show up in the world. This is true for all of us in life. For some it can an even more challenging path.
Emery Fung however always knew he was male despite being born female. He always knew how he wanted to dress and how he wanted to be. Born in Hong Kong to a traditional and conservative Chinese family the road to transitioning gender was not easy.
This is a story of being clear of your identity and being courageous to start down that path. If you ever wanted to understand the process for changing gender Emery talks about his steps, and lessons, and we can be more inclusive for transgender people.
Would you like to listen to Emery's podcast? Here's the link to Awkward Turtle at Work
Emery also has a TEDx talk recorded at TEDxCityUHongKong called Best kept secret in life - Be different. Make sure you check it out.
The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.
Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.
Go to https://www.thecultureministry.com/ to learn more
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Welcome to A Dog Called Diversity, a podcast where we explore the themes of diversity, equity and inclusion through sharing stories of personal and powerful lived experiences. In life. It can take time to know who you are and how you need or want to show up in the world. This is true for all of us in life. For some, it can be an even more challenging path. Emery Fung, however, always knew he was male, despite being born female. He always knew how he wanted to dress and how he wanted to be. Born in Hong Kong to a traditional and conservative Chinese family, the road to transitioning gender was not easy. This is a story of being clear of your identity and being courageous to start down that path. If you ever wanted to understand the process for changing gender, emery talks about his steps and lessons and how we can be more inclusive for transgender people. Here's your podcast. Host Lisa Mulligan.
Speaker 2:Well, welcome to the podcast, Emery Fung. It's so great to have you here.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:It's a pleasure, and I know you because I have seen a lot of your social media posts, particularly on LinkedIn and particularly about your podcast, which is called Awkward Turtle at Work. Is that the current?
Speaker 3:That's the current yeah.
Speaker 2:I'd like to know a bit about your podcast. And then, how did you come up with such a cool name? Because I get asked that as well. So yeah, tell us about your podcast.
Speaker 3:We both have animals on ours.
Speaker 2:We do. What's that about I?
Speaker 3:don't know, I never really thought too much into it, but I guess the idea of the podcast really is kind of inspired from my day job, which is in recruitment. I guess in recruitment is an industry where you kind of fall into it. I've never met anyone who's a recruiter, kind of said I've always wanted to be a recruiter.
Speaker 3:No, you don't grow up and say you know I want to be a fire person, fireman or a recruiter Like yeah, exactly so, yeah, so I think it's quite interesting kind of you meet different people there as well who come from lots of different backgrounds and it's not a typical background that people go into recruitment for. But you know, essentially I think our job, how I see, is actually a lot of the times hearing people why they don't want their job and why they hate their job and they want to leave. But the funny thing that I saw very early on, kind of I noticed a pattern was that they say they hate their job, they say they don't like to do this anymore, but then I see them moving to to a very similar role, a different company and essentially doing the same thing and probably got, you know, a slight increment with their salary from moving. And I just thought that was a lot more apparent in Hong Kong market than compared to the other countries that I work, I cover, and it kind of got me thinking why is that? Why do people move jobs so quickly and then? But they always want to pivot out, but they never actually do it, um, and then. So, yes, I realize that maybe people don't really understand, or not fully understanding, what work really means to them, um, and there are different avenues and different kind of paths you can go to.
Speaker 3:Uh, it is tough, because I think hong kong especially um, the way we are brought up is very corporate driven, very financial kind of city. The hub, hub, the big law firms are here, all that kind of stuff. So we see that a lot more. So I think a lot of people think, oh, that's the path that I should go into, and if I don't go into that path, therefore I failed or therefore I haven't achieved what I've set out to do from school. So I thought it's quite an interesting kind of angle and essentially I use my recruitment background and my favorite part is meeting people and interviewing people. I'd be quite nosy about what they do for their job. So yeah, so that's kind of how it came about. But the name really is more about just I just like turtles. I really see them as like my spirit animal. I like how they just seem very wise, they seem very they know everything, they're so chill, they yeah just a whole aura about turtle. Um, so yeah, that's kind of really how the name came from oh, I love it.
Speaker 2:I love it and, um, I know, when I was naming this podcast, a dog called diversity I. You know, when I looked at all the podcasts that are out there, I think it's hard to stand out and it's hard to cut through, and so I think, having an unusual name um, possibly, which you have, which is really cool, look, I'd like, I'd like you to tell a story a bit about growing up and, because it was interesting, I reached out to you to come on the podcast, not knowing your experience, not not knowing that you had transitioned genders at all, and so when I met you, I took you at face value. But, as as with all of us, we all have stories and experiences that shape us. So I'd love to if you could tell us a bit about, I guess, growing up in Hong Kong and your education, and and maybe a bit about how you realized that you weren't female. That's not how you wanted to identify.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely yeah. So growing up in hong kong, um, I, so my family um very traditional um. So a bit of context my dad basically worked in the government his whole life um, so I think he worked there like 40 years plus. He even got like a certificate for it. He's very proud of it. It's front and center in in in uh in a home um. So you can imagine kind of that kind of mindset or that kind of kind of value upbringing um in hong kong. Because of the government relationship, we actually got subsidies um to go to school in the uk, which is one of the great perks um for that. So you know, we weren't definitely um a very, I guess, well-off family, but because of subsidies I was able to go abroad um study from quite a young age, but a bit before that. So I left hong kong when I was nine. Uh, I still remember that kind of.
Speaker 3:Before I left um, the contrast was was just so much um, and what I mean by that was that when you go to school um, you are very much expected to be. You know even the way they set up the classrooms, right, it's kind of you sit in your own table, you sit in rows, there's no table. So you're kind of all in your little kind of pigeonhole almost, and that's kind of the mindset you have growing up from a very young age and it's not a lot of discussion in classrooms. It's always the teachers will say abc and then we kind of just come back with the homework the next week. So it's very kind of.
Speaker 3:I would say, a lot of times a lot of things are kind of spoon fed where you know there's not much room. From my experience anywhere going to a local school in Hong Kong where you are able to kind of collaborate with different people or kind of think outside the box a little bit. So that's very structured, very kind of clear what is expected, is expected of you from from a very young age, um, so that's a mindset I I kind of grew up at and um, and I was very different when I was a kid, when I was just a couple of years old as well. I I already said no to dresses and skirts and stuff um which that could just be a difficult toddler, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly um yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think you know it was more just like oh, I'm just, I'm going for a face, um, and the funny thing was that actually I used to have really bad eczema, um, and I used to have it all around my neck um. So I've always actually had short hair, um, so that it doesn't, you know, it doesn't cover my neck um. So I've always had short hair from a young age and, um, I was very sporty um. Now I know, actually I also have ADHD and I'm dyslexic. So I really struggled in school in Hong Kong and that was not something that people were, I guess we were exposed to even now, actually in Hong Kong. So I've always kind of I guess I've seen us or always perceived as a kind of a difficult child who wants to run around, doesn't want to wear dresses, just wants to, you know, go outside all day and not do my homework, um. So that's kind of what I felt. And then you know, um, and it was quite apparent that I felt, you know what I like and what I enjoy um is not really what the society looks like or what they, what, what successful, should look like in the society. That that I was kind of brought up to to believe in um.
Speaker 3:And you know, I just kind of I think I felt quite different when I was quite a young age, but I never knew what it was, I just knew I felt different, uh, but I didn't know. I didn't think it was a good thing or bad thing, I just felt different but I didn't have the words for it. I think it was probably up until maybe high school, where you obviously have the internet, facebooks that are coming through um, you have a bit more access in the just information in general. Then I realized, ah, that's how I've been feeling this whole time. There's actually a word for it and there's a process, there's a whole thing you can actually go through with it. Um, so, in a funny way, uh is that I can never really say it out loud when I was a kid, but somehow just made sense to me internally, if, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you must have had, you must have had an inkling, because then what do you Google? You know there's that feeling like you don't fit in and that things are not quite right, but then you know, knowing, I guess, where you want to be is a different thing right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think probably the thing that kind of led me to be exposed in, I guess, the LGBT world was that when you're so I went to an all-girls school in the UK and when you're a bit more sporty and you have short hair, it's very easy to be labeled as a lesbian in school. Yep, and that was the label that was, I guess, put on me and then I felt that's not quite right. I do, I was very open about my sexuality in terms of um, attracted to, to female um, but it just still didn't feel right. But I didn't know what it was. It did take me a few more years to realize okay, that's not right. So what? What is it that I'm feeling? Um, so then I guess I went on this journey about kind of just looking at things online, um. So I think really was because of that label was put on me that I didn't feel quite right, made me to look at what are the other options there.
Speaker 2:So when I guess when was the point where you said okay, I know that I identify with being a male. You know I don't want to live as a female anymore, so tell us a bit about that decision and that process.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think actually, as I mentioned, I think, even when before I went to the UK, even when I was in primary school, I always felt that I was more like a boy. Uh, I didn't probably say that I am a boy per se, but I just felt that I was definitely more like a boy than a girl. Um, so that was the first inkling. But really I think the process, uh, as I developed, as I grew up along the years, I think I kept kind of having this at the back of my mind, this idea, um, but really I think it was really more about when I finished university that I was actually going through a bit, and I do feel like I'm probably, um, I think I could have done it way earlier.
Speaker 3:Um, and I think the reason why I personally left it quite well, in my perspective, a little bit bit late was because I wanted to do it through my own way. I didn't want to use my parents' money, I wanted to have my own money essentially to do the whole process, and at the time it felt like it was going to be a large sum of money. And I think because of me growing up away from my parents and going through kind of social transition as well. So I always dress the way I've dressed over the years. So there was a lot of tension. So I didn't really want to kind of add another layer, be like I actually need a lot of money parents.
Speaker 3:Give me more money to do this, something that you probably don't agree with. So I wanted to kind of wait until I was like an adult before I really went through with it. But then, having said that, it then also took me a few years after that to really actually go through, because it's quite scary and actually going through the admin side of things is lots of logistics and it's quite confusing. It's not especially in Hong Kong. It's not information online. You do need to do a lot of research before you really get started. Not information online. Um, you do need to do a lot of research before you really get started.
Speaker 3:So, really, I think, for the um, when I really put my foot down, I think when I was about 25, um was that I I just always thought that, okay, before I'm 30, before I get married, I want legally you know my paperwork, if you like um to be kind of done, uh, which means I've got only five years left, uh, which is more or less kind of cutting it a bit thin, I think. So that was the time where I was okay, I really need to get started on this. So I started looking into it. You know who do I even speak to, you know where do I even start, and that took a while to really know who to speak to in Hong Kong and what other resources there are, and I think the actual kind of just looking at the steps. It took me a good kind of four or five months to really understand what even needs to be done. And then ever since, obviously it's taken me onto a whole new world.
Speaker 2:So could you talk a little bit about different stages of transitioning? And some people choose just to do one, some people choose to do them all. My understanding of transitioning is there's you know how you present to the world. You know whether you present as male or female or maybe a non-binary version of that. There's drug therapy and I guess there's surgery as well. So how did you decide where you wanted to go with all of that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great question Because I think probably most people wouldn't know about these things unless you were in the community. So I guess the easiest way is that there's two levels. I guess, if you like to call it that, for lack of a better word is that one. Some people choose to socially transition. So what you mentioned there is kind of how you dress, you identify yourself and how do you represent yourself.
Speaker 3:Uh, and gender expression really is, is what I'm kind of looking at and some people are very happy with that alone. Is is good enough for them, and then they obviously will carry on with that. Um. Some people feel that they will need also the medical side of things, um to make, um to go through the whole kind of what they think is comfortable for themselves. So it's very different for everyone. I would say not everyone would have. Not a single person will have an exact same kind of path they choose to go on. It can get a little bit, I guess, confusing because you never know know who's at what stage and you don't know when to ask questions and how to ask questions but I guess you know the how it decides.
Speaker 3:I think it does come down to quite a lot of different things so I think depending on where you're from, in terms of culturally and also kind of what the law says. So I know some countries majority in the West, I know UK is like this is where if you have, if you're socially transitioned and then you have like a certain amount of period of time, the doctors essentially can approve for you to go get your legal gender changed on your documents, whereas some countries, for example Hong Kong, the requirements are much, much higher. So it does depend on you know where you, how, I guess, where you want to be. So do you want a whole in terms of your legal documents being changed as well from a legal perspective, or are you quite happy kind of being? You know the way you dress now and you know when it comes to passport and things still have that as your quote-unquote old gender? Um, so it does depend. For me I really wanted to have kind of uh, the the full thing done, if you like. Um, I really always kind of envisioned that my, my passport and everything that my legal documents, everything will be changed.
Speaker 3:But again, it's not for everyone. Um, for the medical side, um, there's quite a lot of steps and procedures, um, again, depending on what country you're from, what's available to you, but usually most people do start with, obviously, seeing a psychiatrist to make sure you know, you fully understand, you're fully aware, you know what you're signing up yourself for, you understand, um, the commitment level, um, and you know what are the potential side effects, if any. Um, that you would have as well. But main, mainly, once you get that cleared, uh, then you'll get put on hormone replacement therapy, um, and essentially that's kind of I always want to call it like your second puberty is where you, you get through that again, right, yeah, and it wasn't fun when, when you're an adult, because I went through that when I was um, working right and yeah, as a recruiter, you're on the phone all day.
Speaker 3:So it's kind of funny because, um, my voice started breaking when covert was quite bad in hong kong on the first big wave, so a lot of people thought I had covert right, but I didn't want to go around telling him oh no, no, he's not covered. I haven't got a cough. It's because of you know it's. I don't think they need to change genders?
Speaker 3:yeah, exactly so that was quite nothing important exactly so I thought it's quite a funny thing um to encounter with with covid. Um, yeah, and then. So, yeah, it's like natural, things like your, your voice start to break body hair and things like that. Um, so yeah, and then usually once you get for hong kong anyway, once you get one year in um then you obviously have checkups and things and make sure you're happy with the way you are some people who might want to envision doing the full thing, um, doing surgeries and things, but they may feel that once they've done their hormone therapy they might feel actually, no, I'm quite happy with with this, now I don't need to do anything further. So that could also change as well, depending on you know how you're feeling.
Speaker 3:So they make it quite important that we keep checking in with doctors just to make sure that we are still happy and still understand what we're doing and we're still happy to go forward. Yeah, and then once you are through the minimum requirement for Hong Kong is one year and then, once you've gone through that, then obviously you can start looking at surgeries, you know, if you wish, and that usually is just between top and bottom and then and bottom um, and then yeah, and then, but obviously, um, the surgeries are the irreversible, uh, medical transition, whereas the hormone if you get off the hormone for a while it kind of reverses anyway. So that's why they do take that one year minimum before they kind of sign you off or do anything.
Speaker 2:That's irreversible yeah, and hopefully for listeners know this is a massive process. It's not something that's undertaken lightly. You know the hormone taking, hormone replacement therapy is a big undertaking and you know going through puberty again is probably not something anyone wants to wish on themselves. And you know most people don't go looking for surgery either and the kind of surgery that's undertaken for people transitioning gender is major. So, like, how do you react to people who say well, you know you're just being ridiculous. How could you, how could you know that, that you're a different gender to what was assigned to you at birth? Like you know, how do you kind of challenge those questions?
Speaker 3:yes, well, I guess my, my standpoint is that, um, what I believe is that not, and I think it goes with a lot of different um aspects of life where sometimes you're just not born into what you like. And as simple as that, really, and everyone, I'm pretty sure, even if you're born wealthy, you're born in the most perfect family. There's gonna be something you wish you could have changed and I think essentially what I'm doing is really just trying my hardest and finding the best way, or the or the um, the solution where I can go towards a bit more what I think my life should be like, um, and I just think, you know, if I'm not really, you know, doing anything wrong and disturbing anyone, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. So that's usually kind of what I say, but I do understand. Obviously there's still a lot of.
Speaker 3:I think the trouble is that there's still a lot of misconception of why people transition, especially, I think, when it comes to the sporting world, where there's a lot of arguments right about, you know, the oh my goodness, which in my opinion is it's like it doesn't make any sense, because why would a man pretend to be a woman to win at a woman's race, like how does that then fulfill them as a man if, if that, if that's the thinking they're thinking about right, they want to win, yeah, would that justify as winning for a man? If, if you know, that doesn't make any sense and I don't think anyone wants to go through the trouble of all of the hormones and surgery just to win at a race like that, that to me just doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2:So that's usually kind of what I go with yeah, no, fair enough, tell me about your family how um supportive or not have they been during this time?
Speaker 3:um, to be honest, you know, I I didn't really tell them, um, the full picture, probably until I got all my doctor's appointment in place, okay, and uh, and that's just. You know, that's just kind of the way I wanted to deal with it, because it was already quite a big kind of thing that I need to go through. It's a lot of mentally and physically a lot of things to go through, um, so I want to kind of understand the full picture before I say, okay, this is what I'm doing. I want to kind of go to them with like a plan, um, very very.
Speaker 3:Asian, very practical um, so I wanted to tell them everything I knew about it. Um, so I don't get any ask, any, any um, surprising questions. I mean, obviously, at a start they weren't, um, fully on board, um, as I think it's understandable, because they did, you know, give birth to a daughter, expecting, you know the things like I'll work it out in the aisle one day. You know, that kind of stuff that you think about as a parent, right? So I completely understand that and so, yeah, so I think at the beginning they were. The reaction was like okay, we hear you, we understand what you're saying, but it's going to be a long time for us to process it, because we expected you to live a completely different life and, you know, we kind of come to an acceptance of how you dress and how you live your life. You know we don't say too much anymore compared to when I was a teenager, because I think that was probably the most part that caused friction because A I was a teenager, I was going through puberty the first time.
Speaker 3:The first time, the first time and then, secondly, it was. You know, I was just like the way I saw it was changed, finding my style like any other teenager when they were finding out what they like to wear. But my version of that would just happen to be a probably a wider choice that I had that they thought I would choose from, um. So I think they probably had a quite a hard time for me when I was changing my wardrobe, in a sense, when I was a teenager. So they were like, oh, we, we went through that, we understand, and then you know, we now accept, you know the way you dress and we understand it and and it's fine, but that we didn't expect there was going to be a next step after that. So it's going to take us some time to digest um.
Speaker 3:So initially not so much, uh, but I think as we went along the the lucky thing is that they've both retired my parents, um, so I actually do bring into my checkups, uh, if they're free, um. So I think that that's really helped, just because that they kind of go to the clinics and see, oh, it's nothing weird that goes on, it's just any other hospital that you go to, yeah in fact it's the same hospital they go to for their checkups, um, so I think that that made that was a massive help.
Speaker 3:Um, I'm probably because I've moved out, I'm a bit more older, they probably respect my decision a bit more compared to, let's say, if I was, like you know, 15, 16. I think that would be a bit of a hard discussion. Then I probably needed more support from my parents to kind of lead the way. But obviously now I'm able to say, okay, this is what I'm doing and this is ABCDFG and yeah, so that's B, c, d, f, g and yeah, so that's kind of lucky in a sense, where I had the timings of everything kind of worked out for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. Tell me a bit about how have your experiences of transitioning, I guess, impacted on your career and maybe the work you want to do in the world.
Speaker 3:That's a great question because, um, at the start, when I was thinking about so, I've been thinking about transitioning for majority of my life that I can remember. I might not be able to say it, but I've always had this kind of idea back in my head. Um, so it's definitely something that I've always thought about. Um, and as many things in life as well. You kind of expect one day, when I do this, the day after I'll have a completely new life. Yeah, you'll be, fixed.
Speaker 3:Yeah exactly If I go to the gym today, tomorrow I'm going to be this. I'll look like this tomorrow.
Speaker 2:I still expect that.
Speaker 3:So that's the idea I had, right, and for transitioning, and obviously now it's taken a lot of time for me to adjust. Okay, I know I've waited for, you know, 20 odd years, but there's still going to be a few more years at least to go, because I expected, you know, once I tell everyone it's going to be from day two this is going to be my new life. So that took a lot of adjusting and mentally kind of processing it, because I've waited for so long and now kind of had to hang on for a few more years. So that was kind of a surprise that I didn't really consider.
Speaker 2:Did you have to transition at work Like was there a yeah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I wore suits and things and ties for work. So from a social context not so much, but from my, so I changed my name, so it was the funniest thing actually. So I told my manager at the time that this is what I'm doing and then kind of gave him the idea of you know what I would need, kind of from a work perspective, and what I need to do, and I kind of thought, oh, once I speak to him, he will speak to HR and then it'll be done, they'll fix it.
Speaker 2:They'll know what to do Obviously, and then it'll be done. They'll fix it.
Speaker 3:They don't know what to do? Obviously not. And then they came back and said actually we have no idea what to do. Would you like to give us things that you need from us, and then we can support you whatever ways?
Speaker 3:So I was like, ah, okay, so I never thought about this process either and it was the littlest thing, like the name cards, my email address, a toilet key, just little things that you don't really think about. Um, it's almost kind of doing onboarding over again. Um, yeah, kind of updating your, your stuff on on the internet and whatnot, um, so there was a lot of process that I didn't really think about, kind of the really detailed stuff down to the daily lives, everyday lives that I need to change. I mean, I'm still changing my email address now and then, because it's impossible to keep up for everything that you sign up for.
Speaker 3:I'm still changing a lot of things as I go along now. So, yeah, and so, coming out of work, I think luckily I worked in MNC and it was probably a bit more open and I felt comfortable enough to kind of just say what I wanted to say, you know, because they also essentially gave me the lead to to do what I needed to do. So I basically said that I wanted to. At first I wanted to just keep it quite hush, hush and I didn't want to make a big deal of it because I didn't want to have like a spotlight on me.
Speaker 3:But the more I think about it, the more it doesn't make sense. Because, from a business perspective, how do I tell clients and my candidates my name has changed and six months later my voice is going to change like how are they meant to know who I am anymore? Right, yeah, um, so things like that. I'm like, okay, it actually doesn't make sense if I just don't talk about it. And it took me a while to really find a way to, um, quote, unquote, announce it. And I thought, you know, calling them one by one is just stupid and emailing them is stupid. I don't think anyone wants an email like this, especially from a recruiter.
Speaker 2:What did you do, yeah?
Speaker 3:So I ended up actually sending writing a LinkedIn post on LinkedIn and I thought if they see it, they see it, if they don't, then I'll just go through it, but at least you know, you know, majority people would have seen the myth in the post, um, and then just done um, and I was in quite a small office. So I sent an email to the office saying that, okay, this is, this is what I'm posting online. Some of you may have heard already blah, blah, um, just so that you, you hear from me first, not from the internet. Um, and that was it, um, I and I took a day off, I remember, because I didn't want to be in the office when I was sending that email. So I took a day off and sent through all that and really I didn't think it was going to be a big reaction. I honestly thought people would be like, ok, cool, and then move on.
Speaker 3:And then a few hours later I checked my phone and it was a lot of people just messaging me. I was getting random kind of people connecting with me on LinkedIn and emailing me and just to say thank you for being so open, especially kind of being in the region of Asia and just it's great to see people are really supportive and just being, you know, really cool about it and kind of. From that moment on I'm like, oh, people do really want to hear about things like this. And then I never used LinkedIn like that before. I only used it as a recruiter where I would find candidates, and that's it, like I wouldn't use it for anything else. Um, I'll post the odd kind of post there and there, but nothing kind of personally like this.
Speaker 3:And I think that was also the point where LinkedIn started to change as well, how it was yeah, so it's becoming a bit more Facebook, like yes, it was more about, I guess, um, diversity as well and, just in um, things that's non-work related in a way, if you know what I mean in general. Um, so, yeah, so that was again, I think that was people, uh, also, uh, blessing the skies, the timing of it, that people were a bit more receptive. I keep thinking if I put that post maybe two years before, probably the reaction was would be very, very different, um, so I think that kind of again worked out quite nicely and yeah, and then, yeah, from that moment on, I just realized that, oh, maybe people do need to hear about this, because a lot of the emails that I was getting was was people saying that, oh, my god, I have a friend who went through a similar thing, uh, and they had a really horrible time. Um, I wish someone like you would have like spoke more about it, blah, blah, and I'm like this is actually really useful.
Speaker 3:People who I don't even know, and then, the more I thought about it, more than like well, I don't mind speaking about it, because some people do don't like speaking about it, and that's fine, um, but I just happen not to, and I enjoy actually sharing with people because I think it also helps people. It makes people to think as well about the what they perceive the world is like, and you know there are very different people across the world. So, yeah, so the more I do it, the more I really realize I enjoy it. Uh, and then, yeah, and then ever since I've been doing more kind of D&I stuff, um, in general, yeah, thank you for sharing all of that.
Speaker 2:I was really curious when you were talking about changing your name and how were you going to communicate with your work colleagues and your clients and friends. I'm really interested in how you felt about your identity during that time and also changing your name. I have a real view about people changing their name when they get married and particular women changing their name because I think there's a kind of patriarchal reason why it happens.
Speaker 3:Why does a woman take away the last name?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's because when you're born, you're owned by your father and then when you get married, the father gives the woman to the next man, so they take their. So you know, people change their name however they want. I wouldn't ever change my name because I don't. I don't agree with that, that system. But you know, everyone should do what makes them comfortable. But for me I'm Lisa Mulligan. That's my identity, that's who I am. So when you were going through that period where I guess you got to choose a new name, you had to let go of your old name and, I guess, let go of maybe who you are and then transition into this new. You know, was it a challenge or was it something you were really looking forward to? Like what were the emotions of that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, really mixed. So that's also one thing that I've always thought about, but I never exactly understood what it meant until you've done it right about. But I never exactly understood what it meant until you've done it right. So I actually stayed with the same first letter of my name as my like my old name before.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it was quite a girly name and people who know me, who listens to the podcast, will know what that is and basically you know that that was a name that I never felt any connection with um. I hated it. I never liked using that name um, and in fact, a lot of my friends actually refer me just they just call me E, um ever since high school. Um, so lucky, and I and I also had a really good support system from from school as well, because I went to boarding school and I played team sport.
Speaker 3:So I've always had kind of my peers around me that were very supportive and, I think, also really helped me the way I am and being so open about it and yeah, so I've always kind of people just refer me to to E and so I never really had an identity to a name per se okay, which is a quite a quite a weird concept I think, maybe for for a lot of people is that I don't feel any particular connection with my name. I was like, okay, when I change my name eventually I'm going to feel aligned, I'm going to be so fulfilled, I'm going to feel you know my whole self. And that is not true, because it wouldn't be. Because when I changed my name to Emery, I think for the first few months I had no idea people were calling me, because I've never been called Emery. I had people calling me Emery and I'm just like doing my own thing, like da, da, da, da and then like oh no oh they're talking to me.
Speaker 3:So it took a long time really to really register. And even hearing the first time from like a stranger, I think, especially people who I don't know, who actually obviously just think my name is Emery for life, that's a different feeling to someone who's known and then kind of made an effort oh, emery. So that was a different feeling, depending on who was saying as well, which I never really thought I would have any emotions towards that part of the thing. I just thought once I change my name I'll be happy, and then from that, so that was a whole experience that I didn't expect. But you know, the name really now is kind of now. It's been about, I think, about maybe a year and a bit more, maybe to come up to two years. Now it feels a bit more natural. Only just started to, which is a really weird thing to say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're kind of stepping into it now and owning it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I guess I'm guessing I'm meeting more people who didn't know me before, so now it's kind of like I'm stepping into.
Speaker 2:A lot more people know me as just Emery and not yeah, kind of you know, like me, yeah, I know you as a man and as Emery, and that's all I know. Yeah, which must be nice sometimes.
Speaker 3:Yeah and um, it's kind of I guess sometimes I have to take a mental note Orma is just kind of I don't know what you know, I don't know what you know, yeah. So there was a lot of that kind of back and forth at the very beginning. But I think now you know, as more people I meet, the easier it is to kind of just go into it.
Speaker 2:Cool. How can people be more inclusive of transgender people? What kind of things would make a difference for people who are thinking about transitioning, in transition or have fully transitioned? What would that?
Speaker 3:be. I really think transgender issues that comes up in society. A lot of it stem from just general understanding of what gender roles are and what we think gender roles are. I think as soon as the distinction is not so high, people are going to be a lot more open to the idea of on the on the spectrum of sexuality and gender identity. But I think basically, before we tackle that kind of you know what a man should look like, what a man should be doing, what a woman should be doing, what a woman should be dressing at work, in their personal life, all that kind of, before we have that kind of I guess, tackled, it's going to be a very hard discussion of what even is a man and what is a woman, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's how.
Speaker 3:I see it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true. What is the best way to support someone if they're coming out and saying I'm transgender? What are the? I don't know the best response, but what's the best way to support someone?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot. I don't know what the best response is. My personal opinion was that I was a little bit uncomfortable I'm not really exactly sure why. When people tell me congratulations and you're so brave, that kind of stuff. Yeah, the reason being is I think it's because, from my perspective, it's something I've always wanted to do and it's always something that I've always worked hard against. So now I'm being kind of congratulated on that. That kind of doesn't make. It's not really aligned to what I've always seen. The transition kind of process Am I making?
Speaker 2:any sense to you? Is it like you had no choice but to go on this path? So, with people saying, oh wow, congratulations, that takes courage, is it almost like? Well, it's not. It's something I had to do. It's just who I am.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, and I think I felt like I probably needed to work a lot harder than everyone else to kind of prove myself a bit more. Probably needed to work a lot harder than everyone else to kind of prove myself a bit more, um, and especially kind of before transgender, the, the lesbian label was put on me and and kind of tomboy label was put on me, um, so that was a different kind of. I guess in Hong Kong there, um, the the perception of, of that label or that stereotype, um something that I very wanted to work, um, um kind of work away from, uh, but kind of being saying, oh, congratulations, that that felt a little bit like.
Speaker 3:I see, I it's nice, it's a great nice intention yeah, I think there's good intent yeah, but I just felt like maybe it's not exactly you know what, what it should be, uh, but that was my.
Speaker 2:Don't say congratulations and yeah, that was my yeah my my perspective on that and my personal feeling.
Speaker 3:But I think the best way really is just to kind of just ask them, not just how they're feeling really, because I think, aside from the physical things and the admin side of logistics, of doctor's appointments and that kind of stuff is a lot, but there's a lot to process mentally and I think there's a lot of things that you don't know until you get to that stage where you might feel a bit funny about and you might feel a bit uncomfortable about.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, for example, you know, I again naively I thought, once I have that LinkedIn post out, that will be the one and only time I need to talk to someone about this exactly and and I feel like I've come out maybe about a 500 times now um, and it's like a process, right and so yeah, so it's things like this and it's also adjusting along the way of you know where your life stages and things. So I think when I was younger I was very adamant that once I transition, I'm gonna not talk about my old life and then I'll just be a man and then not have that in my life. And some people choose doing that and that's great, that works for them. But as as the journey kind of went on a bit more, I kind of realized maybe for me I don't feel so comfortable dismissing my entire life before this. No, um, so I do want to have that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly um. So I want to have that included. But some people choose to not talk about it at all. Some people choose to um, so there's a lot of adjustment. You know, whatever stage you're at um. So I think it's important to check in on just your friends. You know um, because you know, even though they might be very adamant and and very confident about what they're doing, but they're still going to be bits where they probably need some mental support. Um, there isn't much, I would say, that you can do to help, but I think the mental support helps.
Speaker 3:So much so listen, ask what supports needed at yeah stages yeah, I think sometimes we just need to talk about things you know, as we all do in a lot of things with work or whatever it is. I think sometimes it's lending an ear to someone being there listening and I guess not to be afraid to ask questions. I feel like sometimes people I do sense that some people do want to kind of have the good intention and want to kind of ask me questions, but they don't know what's the right wording and would I offend you so they can kind of see them holding back. So when I kind of wrote the post and told kind of the people who needed to know, I made a very conscious effort saying that look, you know, it's also me that's doing this the first time I don't really know what.
Speaker 2:I'm doing either, exactly.
Speaker 3:So you know, please, please, please, ask me any questions that you have. I might not have the answer, but I might give you a different perspective that you didn't think about before, so we can kind of help each other on this journey. Because with work with my parents, with my peers, it's, you know, transition, I think a lot of times I thought it was my own kind of thing, my own kind of process, but it's really not, because it does affect people around you, affects how your family is, affects, you know, your partner, your work and all that kind of stuff. So it's important to kind of all help each other on that procedure, uh, on the transition of it from a social context as well yeah, that's such good advice, really good advice.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for sharing, emory. Um, it was so great to speak to you today. Is there anything else that you wanted to end with that you'd like to share with listeners?
Speaker 3:yeah, um, so, yeah. So I think we spoke about this uh briefly before, but I think you know, as I mentioned earlier, the more work that I do in the space, the more I realize there's a um, there's a part that I can play, um, yeah, in this I guess world, if you like, especially in, as there's a lot of work to be done from an awareness piece, from an education piece. We're still quite a long way from that and, you know, I think going kind of sharing personal lived experiences is probably one of the most powerful thing.
Speaker 3:I agree yeah so I really love doing this kind of speaking stuff and obviously being on a podcast like this, this, and then you do some great work. So, yes, I guess you know I really want to combine the skills and the experiences I've had and we can look at what I can do next in terms of bringing awareness in general and kind of piecing my recruitment piece and help businesses to navigate. You know how they can deal with this kind of stuff. You know if they have someone coming out, if they're someone transitioning or any other thing. Um, you know how how do we help them as a business? Because I realize probably a majority of business don't don't really have like a list or like a blueprint or what to do, uh, like a process. Um, so yeah, so that's where I really want to help business, because I think we are probably ignoring a large population of people who are very, very capable, very, very talented, very, very smart.
Speaker 3:But they don't see a future in businesses and in corporates because they don't feel like they belong and there's lots of doors that's being shut in front of them. So I really want to kind of close that gap and help businesses to kind of bring more of those talents and at the same time help the business, because you know, if you find the right, as you know, if you have the right talent, it helps so much. So that's kind of what I want to do next and hopefully you know that that will make a difference as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't wait to see what you do. I'm really excited and thank you so much for today.
Speaker 3:Thank, you so much, Lisa.
Speaker 1:What an amazing story. I hope you enjoyed learning about something that was so important to Emery. As you heard, Emery has his own podcast called Awkward Turtle at Work, and I really encourage you to listen. The link is in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something, please share on social media. Give a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts and leave a comment.