A Dog Called Diversity
A Dog Called Diversity
Not all gay people are marching in parades........with Marco de Vries
Do you know how to react if someone comes out to you? What do you say if someone tells you they are gay or transgender?
In this episode we hear from Marco De Vries from the Netherlands. He talks about growing up in Amsterdam, the first country to legalise gay marriage. He tells his story of coming out, accepting himself, and meeting and marrying the love of his life, twice. And he gives great advice about how to react if someone comes out to you and how not all gay people are marching in parades and wearing glitter and rainbows.
An interesting point Marco raised was that most gay people are not raised by gay people and how parents of kids need to get themselves educated by reading and talking to experienced people to learn and support their kids.
There is so much to learn and Marco's conversation is a great contribution.
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Welcome to A Dog Called Diversity, a podcast where we explore the themes of diversity, equity and inclusion through sharing stories of personal and powerful lived experiences. It's been a little while, but we are back with some amazing people with some amazing stories. Do you know how to react if someone comes out to you? By this we mean if they tell you they're gay or transgender. This week we are hearing from Marco de Vries in the Netherlands. He talks about growing up in Amsterdam, the first country to legalise gay marriage. He tells his story of coming out, accepting himself and meeting and marrying the love of his life twice, and he gives great advice about how to react if someone comes out to you and how. Not all gay people are marching in parades and wearing glitter and rainbows. Here's our host, lisa Mulligan.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the podcast, Marco.
Speaker 3:Thank you, it's great to have you here For all my listeners.
Speaker 2:Marco and I work together at Wall-E and it's been great working with Marco and getting to know him and I'm so glad you agreed to come on the podcast. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I am too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so why don't you tell us a little bit about you now and a bit about your personal life now?
Speaker 3:Okay, so I'm Marco De Vries. De Vries is the most common surname in the Netherlands.
Speaker 2:It's like Smith in English.
Speaker 3:It's like Smith in English. Yeah, I'm 51. No way, yeah.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that yeah. Much younger.
Speaker 3:Thank you. So, 51, I'm married to my husband Chris. We've been married for 22 years and we have been together 25 years. 19th of September is our marriage date, and I know that because that's the date when we first dated. So that's also my marriage date. We picked the date because of that very small city, 20,000 people, and we've been living here now for four years. Before that, I lived in the Hague, in the center of the Hague, for 13 years and I grew up in Amsterdam and that's also where I met my husband.
Speaker 2:Well, tell me a bit about growing up. What was that like for you?
Speaker 3:It's interesting when people ask me you know when? Did you know that you were gay in hindsight, when I was? 12 wow, when I was 12 I looked at boys, other boys, differently. I didn't know, I didn't, I couldn't place it. You know, I didn't know that and and you don't want to be different not at that age right no, not at that age, not as a teenager.
Speaker 3:I had a very difficult teenage life with finding myself out, never really accepting myself. Let's say I got teased out of school. I had a starting ulcer when I was 13 because of all the stress and everything. I was too nice.
Speaker 2:You know me a little bit different, very nice.
Speaker 3:You know me well, but also very assertive, you know. But I wasn't like that, I was very quiet. But I think the whole situation, my teenage life, my difficult teenage life, made me who I am and made me very resilient. I think yeah.
Speaker 2:I find you very accepting as well, open and accepting. Thank you, try to.
Speaker 3:Try to. I've had all kinds of. You know, that's the great thing about growing up in Amsterdam. When I was growing up, you know, I thought I knew everything and I thought I was very open and when I started to accept myself and then, but you meet all kinds of people in Amsterdam. It's a really nice place to be, as far as you know differences and things like that. So especially when I came out and after I started going out in the gay scene which I didn't do for a very long time- Tell me a bit about that.
Speaker 2:When did you come out? You said you knew at 12 when you look back, but you didn't come out for many, many years later. So what was? How did that happen?
Speaker 3:My best friends knew. That was something like 21, 22 when I told my best friends. But I didn't completely come out until I was 24. And I never went to gay bars, never went to. I also think that that probably maybe saved me a bit, because when I was 18, that's 1988. And 1988 was the height of HIV.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And I think by not going out, by not starting that late, let's say then everybody, there was more knowledge about it, more how to protect yourself and things like that, so that's. So. The coming out was when I was like 24. I told my parents and they already knew. So it like okay, finally, finally, but to them it didn't mean anything until I met my boy, my boyfriend, my husband now uh, how did you?
Speaker 2:because?
Speaker 3:in a gay bar okay, because that was 1997 and mobile phones weren't completely in yet, things like that. So where I did have before that time, I did have experiences with guys and stuff, but it was always like it felt like you were doing something illegal, which is an awful feeling which is an awful feeling.
Speaker 3:And also when you start to flirt with somebody, let's say, on the street, or you have a talk, that usually doesn't go well. So I had a couple of experiences like that. And then I met Chris when I was 27. So I had a couple of years of living on my own, finding out things in Amsterdam and things like that. And then I met Chris in a gay bar and I knew instantly that he was the person that I was going to stay with the rest of my life with yeah.
Speaker 2:Tell me a bit about getting married and getting married in Amsterdam.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I got married twice without a divorce.
Speaker 2:Twice without a divorce.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:How do you do that?
Speaker 3:So we first had registered partnership. So a year before the marriage was legal, they had registered partnership, which was the same except for adoption and uh, so only adoption. Automatic adoption wasn't organized, so that's why they call it and it's still there. You can still do registered partnership instead of, but it's with yes saying. In the whole, everything is the same so you have a ceremony you have like a celebrant marry you yeah okay, yeah, everything.
Speaker 3:But I was always in my, in my mind, when on when I think of marriage, I always had like, okay, I saw a man in a suit and a woman in a white dress yeah so when we got married, we said, well, you know, we're just going to do it for practical reasons and we're not going to do anything special or whatever.
Speaker 3:But it started to become. We had friends from going out in Amsterdam and it started to become. You know, one of them was a fashion designer. He made my clothes and Chris's clothes. It just went that way.
Speaker 3:But when we in the Netherlands you have to find out whether you're not already married, you have to go, you have to register to get married two weeks before, and when we did that, we were the only two men. There were only heterosexual couples in the room and they were all staring at us. And then we went in and we did the talk and the woman, uh who, who was going to do our marriage, was very excited because we were her first gay couple. And and and I never I thought, you know, it's like I don't want to be, I don't want to be different, I don't want to be special, I'm just me, you know. So we, we never, we never really saw it that way. And the second marriage was 2008. I got a bonus from my company and we were allowed to change over the marriage and then you get another marriage certificate. And we were going to Mauritius and because it was a honeymoon, the bride would get 50% discount, so that also counted for us, if you have a marriage certificate. So we thought okay, so we did that.
Speaker 2:Fantastic, which was funny.
Speaker 3:Yeah for us if you have a marriage certificate so we thought, okay, so we did that um, which was, which was funny, yeah, and then with chris, we, you know, started to explore everything, travel, go out and those kind of things and uh, yeah, and and we try to live a normal life. Let's say, just be us. So I think I told you that I never, I never went to a pride, never went to amsterdam pride. There was a canal pride, which is one big party. Never, yeah, I looked at it, let's say from a distance, but never, never had the feeling that I had to had to go stand up for something, or yeah, I had to go, or something like that.
Speaker 3:I mean, we, we went out because during those days it was, you know, it's fun and things like that lots of parties but never really felt that I had to do something for others or for the community, or something like that.
Speaker 2:But in some ways I think of the pride celebrations and I have experience with those in Sydney. You know, in some ways they're a big, just a big celebration and a party. Of course they're about supporting the community as well, but sometimes those big parties and I guess the you know, the streamers and the rainbows and the glitter and the feathers, you know, sometimes that's not for everyone, whether you're gay or not, right?
Speaker 3:I think it had to do. The reason why I didn't want to and I think it's a strong word, but associate myself with all of that was because when I was growing up, those were the things that you saw on television and I never felt I didn't want to be different, especially not that different, yeah, and I felt like, you know, if I should be that, you know, if I should be that gay, then that's not me. So for me it didn't help. So I think for some time I associated it with something well, not negative, but not something, you know, usually positive. You know I thought I don't need that, just be normal, you know, just be yourself, don't put your head up above the Mayfield and things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Has that changed for you now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, completely.
Speaker 2:Tell me about that.
Speaker 3:Well, it's not like I'm on the, you know, on the barricades or things like that, but I or on the floats, yeah. So when I joined, when I joined Jacobs, before I joined Jacobs, you know, people also in companies asked me oh, marco, because I've always been openly gay, I never made a secret out of it. Me oh, marco, because I've always been openly gay, I never made a secret out of it. But then people said oh, marco, you should start a community or whatever in the company. I thought, why? So I never really saw the point.
Speaker 3:When I joined Jacobs, I saw that the company was making a big issue out of diversity and they were explaining why. And then I went to a session with Shell and I found out for the first time in my life I realized I had an epiphany that coming out is not something you do only once, that you do that your whole life, in new environments, with new groups, with you know family members. And it was almost like all of those moments sort of flashed before my eyes where there were microaggressions, unintended microaggressions unintended microaggressions intended positively where I thought, oh, I get it, there's a point here. I need to do something because the way it's going at the moment is not right. I remember family members or you know people asking us oh so, who's, who's, who's the most feminine?
Speaker 2:one of you should be feminine, you know, with me and my husband yeah, it's one of the stereotypes, right like who wore the white wedding dress yeah, exactly, yeah, those kind of things, um, yeah, so who wore the dress?
Speaker 3:or um, oh, you live in amsterdam and you're gay. Oh, then you should know this person because he's also gay.
Speaker 3:All the gay people know each other, all the gay people know each other and it's like, and those are even, you know, the lightest remarks. There are lots of remarks made and you create this fence for it. Where you know, you think, but that's all right, going on vacation as well is we have to, I think where I'm going, you know, I think about where I'm going. I can't go everywhere because you know it's not legal everywhere. And also, even in countries where it's legal, you get these questions around oh, do you? Oh, oh, do you want one bed or two beds? You know things like that and it's. And even if they know you're a couple, there are micro, there are aggressions. That's not even microaggressions anymore around that. So, yeah, when I had that epiphany at Shell, when I was at that meeting, I thought, okay, I get it, there is something wrong here.
Speaker 3:There is something that I need to do, and in a positive way, and that's where my journey started to to make a difference yeah, cool and and it's now part of who I am and that's also who you know yeah, in the, in the company, uh, uh, yeah, but it wasn't like that before that time.
Speaker 2:Let's say I'm always fascinated in workplaces. I'm probably going to say this the wrong way, but no one ever challenges my sexuality when I turn up at work. I think there's an assumption that I'm heterosexual, and so there are no conversations about who I sleep with, when I sleep with them, you know.
Speaker 2:But if you're gay, I struggle with why it matters who you sleep with, because in the workplace, like, it has nothing to do with what you do at work usually, I mean, unless you run a brothel, maybe, but like, why do you think that is Marco? Like?
Speaker 3:and it's also mostly with men. If I think of all the encounters that I've had, I don't I think it mattered a lot less. If you look at women, you know I think women have always been natural allies.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's an interesting thing. The most heterosexual men have absolutely no issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they're comfortable with who they are.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the ones that are a little bit uncomfortable with who they are. For them it's an issue, um, and I'm not saying that those people are gay, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that uncomfortable could be in many ways. You know, if you're not comfortable with yourself, then you start to act that on others.
Speaker 3:Let's say yeah that's what I've learned. Let's say on it and yeah, and also at work, and religion comes into play as well, right, so I knew that I was going into. You know, we work in the oil and gas energy business.
Speaker 3:I worked for 10 years for a company ran out of Texas, and there are lots of places in Texas where you know, houston is very very conservative and I remember once when we had I was hosting a dinner and at the beach in Scheveningen in the Hague and there was a manager from Tyler, texas, and I was there with some colleagues and some other stuff, and at some point he told me he said well, you know, I've been here now a couple of days and I've also gone to Amsterdam, and he said I think Amsterdam is a nice place. And he didn't know I was gay and Amsterdam is a nice place, but these gay people? He said no, it's nothing. And I was like and everybody was looking at me like what is he going to do? So I said, oh, so tell me about that. So what is your view? So I started to feed it because I knew that probably after dinner at some point he would know.
Speaker 2:And then he maybe feels awkward.
Speaker 3:So I started to. So why is that an issue for you and things like that? So I started to ask questions and stuff. So I left it to there and then afterwards a colleague came to me and said Marco, are you okay? I said yeah, I'm fine. And then somebody else who was walking back to the hotel, to their hotel with me, didn't know I was gay, and the guy I've worked with him a long time, he's from the uk and he almost choked because he, because he was also very conservative, but then from the uk and stuff. So it's, I've had a number of those kind of, you know, encounters and my view on that is I'm going to leave it with them. You know, I'm not going to let that bother me, I'm not going to let that hit me, but I also am going to see what I can do to change the thinking.
Speaker 3:And recently, some things that we have done in the company I'm incredibly proud of, of what, what it's doing so. So, for instance, we had I recently had a conversation with so we've started with reverse mentoring in the company and from from initiative, from pride and that's something I thought of last year and during pride month, and so we had senior managers sign up. So we had, of course, you get the first. You get the senior managers to sign up that actually don't even need to sign up because they're already in li or things like that, but they just want to show their support. And then they were talking about it and there was a very senior construction manager from the us who then approached me. He sent an email and he said you know this, and this person was talking about this reverse mentoring. I don't know what reverse mentoring is and I don't understand the big deal. I said okay, do you have time for a call? So we went on a call and he said he said what's reverse mentoring?
Speaker 3:So I explained to him that what reverse mentoring is that you have a less experienced person or you know mentoring a more senior person, or he said, oh, okay, I get that. And he said but you know all of this around women and black people and gays and lesbians. He said all my life I've always treated everybody the same. I told everybody I have no issue. I said to him well, that's great. I said, but could it be that maybe those people would have an issue? And I said have you ever asked them if what you're doing with them. It's okay if that's enough. And he looked at me and it wasn't a camera. He looked at me and said no. He said, but that's a good question. And I said, well, why don't you go and ask to some of them? And he said okay, and he so even in just a couple of you know this complacency, this thing that it's about him, you know.
Speaker 3:You know, I've had, I've had a conversation where I was in a room with, you know, like 30 people and it was about unconscious bias and stuff. And back then it was still jacobs and it was similar. And in the room again there were people saying you know, we don't have, I don't have a problem, I don't have a problem. And these were people that were well, as far as I know, they were not gay or lesbian. And my reaction so I listened to them and my reaction to them is so who are you to say that there is no issue? Have you talked to lesbian and gay people in there? Do they have an issue? And they looked at me. I said this complacency is the issue that you think it's about you.
Speaker 3:It's not about you, yeah that's what I'm trying to teach, also on on. You know, when somebody comes out, the worst reaction is, of course, if somebody acts negative. Yeah, that's the worst. But very close to that is oh, I, I don't, oh I'm I'm fine with you, I don't have a problem with you. That's not the way you should react. The way you should react is I. I commemorate you for accepting yourself. I am happy for you that you accept yourself.
Speaker 3:That's the react. That's what it's about. It's about that person. You know, my husband wasn't out when we met each other and his sister is a stewardess. Well, in the Netherlands the male stewards are usually gay. He was still nervous, but he wasn't nervous because his sister wouldn't accept it. He was nervous about the fact that he was going to show himself, show something very personal about himself to people that loved him and that made him nervous, and that's with everybody, and that's with everybody. So that's you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wanted to pick up on something you said about the man at dinner in Houston where he was talking about Amsterdam and it's like, oh, all those gay people.
Speaker 3:Well, that was in the Netherlands, so he was in the Netherlands.
Speaker 2:Ah, okay In.
Speaker 3:Scheveningen. Yeah, Well, that was in the Netherlands.
Speaker 2:So he was in the Netherlands. Ah, okay, in Scheveningen. Yeah, so around the world there are a number of cities that are known to be supportive of the queer community, so San Francisco, sydney, perhaps Miami, I'm not too sure, but definitely Amsterdam is certainly known for having a big community, but that doesn't mean you always feel safe and it doesn't mean that you're always accepted. So what are some of the experiences you or Chris have experienced, I guess in the Netherlands and in Amsterdam?
Speaker 3:Well, in Amsterdam, when we were just dating, so when we were in the beginning of our relationship, we once walked from my house to the centre and we were, uh, holding hands and there were stones thrown at us. So initially you hear a tick and you think, and then another tick and then you see a group on the other side throwing stones at you, things like that. So it's uh, we've had people pass us by, you know, doing just one swear word, or something like that.
Speaker 3:And it's just so, at some point we just stopped holding hands.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:So we don't do that anymore.
Speaker 2:Even now, no, no.
Speaker 3:No, because we have. I mean, if you, if you Google it, if you read about, you know stories in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam, in Belgium, in Brussels, in London, gay people get beaten up, yeah, and it happens a lot. And we don't dress flamboyant, not because, you know, we don't want to dress up flamboyant, so it's not like. So I think in general, people just think that we are If we are walking on the street, that we are, are friends or whatever. They probably don't make that assumption. So, wherever we are, yeah, but we don't, uh, we don't do that okay and that's, you know, it's.
Speaker 3:It's become a non-non-issue. Um, you know, you just protect yourself and, as I said, we go on vacation to places where we know that you know if, if there is going to be problems, that um, and you have to go to the police or something like that, that they would be accepting and that the country protects you, things like that. So we don't go to countries where we have laws against us. So yeah, so you just create a safe situation, let's say, for yourself.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I wanted to ask you a question and a head of diversity and inclusion said this to me, who you know, external to the company we work for, and I was on a call and she was sharing some of the work they were doing in their business around diversity and inclusion. She was gay and she said, lisa, if we can solve for the LGBTIQ plus community in our organizations, if we, you know, can create inclusion for that community, then we solve it for everyone.
Speaker 3:I wanted to hear your reaction to that well that would be great well, that, well, well, that would be great. Um, because then you know, you just have to focus on one that you've said Well that would be great, Because then you know, you just have to focus on one that you've saved.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know it'd be easy, right? I don't think so. I, you know, I do think. I do think that you know, for instance, you know it's very difficult to measure who's gay and who's lesbian or whatever, right? So what a lot of companies do is they measure diversity, they measure women, because that's something you can measure.
Speaker 2:And then you already collect that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then from statistics that if you treat the women well, then usually those companies score better at treating diversity as a whole. Yeah, but I think the issues that the LGBTQ community has are specific in a company and I don't think you solve everything with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Absolutely not.
Speaker 2:No, I thought that.
Speaker 3:But what you also get, I see it is that you get a tendency of people who get and I've seen that also that who go, who are part of a minority and get active, you know, or in in that community. Then that becomes their world and then they think, oh, and that that becomes the biggest problem. So then they think, oh, if you, if you solve this, then you solve it for all, because in the LGBTQ community you also have women and in the LGBTQ you also have this and whatever.
Speaker 2:But you also have black LGBTQ people.
Speaker 3:But I do think there are some specific issues, and one of them that's one of my goals. So the reverse mentoring is something that I started and we're trying to evolve that further. Actually, today we had a conversation about what is going to be the next topic, and the next topic where I really want to see if we can make steps is benefits, inclusive benefits in the company, on health, but also on pension, you know of all types of families and stuff like that. So that's the next battle. This is specific for LGBTQ. So I think if you look at the Black community, especially in America, I also think that the Black issues around you know indigenous or I think they are different around the globe, so I don't even think I agree, yeah, indigenous, or think they are different around the globe, so I don't even think yeah. And even in our community, you know the issues in India are completely different from the issues that you have in Europe and are completely different from the issues that you have in America.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3:That's just my view.
Speaker 2:No, I I've. I've been asking a number of people in the queer community their reaction to that question because I was like what?
Speaker 3:it's just somebody that wants extra attention for the LGBTQ community, which okay.
Speaker 2:I want to finish up with maybe some final advice from you. You've you've talked about some great things. I loved how you talked about if someone comes out to you, how should you react. I've never heard anyone say that and I think that was really good advice. But what other advice do you have, maybe for people in organizations, or what do you want to see?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we recently well organization I talked about. I really love the fact that you, that company, should see it as a project and should really put milestones in it. What do we want to achieve? And tackle it that way, instead of just becoming a community that's going to nicely talk to each other and all. We're all huggy and nice and whatever. That's nice, but there is actually something to do.
Speaker 3:So that's one, no, the only other advice I would have for your listeners also, because I know, I'm sure, that there must be also parents, and maybe parents of children, who are in the LGBTQ community and things like that. And it's an epiphany I had when I was in a resort in Florida before Corona a couple of years ago. I realized that all gay people and probably all LGBTQ people are not raised by gay people. Some are, but the majority are not. And there is no book for parents, right, there is no. Well, you can Google something, you know best practices, but there is absolutely no.
Speaker 3:So a parent, but at least what you can do as a parent is support from what you know when you were growing up. So when you have a teenager, if your son or daughter is a teenager growing up, you can tell stories about when you were starting to date as a girl, a boy, or as a boy, a girl, whatever, when you started to, also what your sexual experiences were and things like that. If you're a parent of a gay child, you probably can't bank on that, so you have to realize that you don't know anything, really probably, or not much. So read up, talk to people.
Speaker 3:Talk to people, read up, accept the fact that you are not going to people. Talk to people, read up. Accept the fact that you are not going to be knowledgeable enough to help, advise and things like that you know. Talk to experienced people because that's going to help, and also be vulnerable on that one with your child. We recently had a colleague from Australia who has told our whole company that his son of 15, now 16, has come out to him and I think what his father is doing in our company sharing that story is amazing. I had a conversation with him also and I sort of, when I had the conversation, I sort of told him read about it, read about what it's like. Read about it Because he's going to go into that community, he's going to go and explore and he's going to be on his own initially.
Speaker 3:Yeah but there will be other parents out there. Yeah, and there will be other parents out there and there will be other people and there will be things to read about. You know, go and look for it. I think that is a very important message as well for people to take in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is such good advice, marco, and I actually really loved when you talked about talk to your children about when you were dating and you were growing up, because the emotions of that to an extent you know being nervous about going on a date or being nervous about kissing someone or having sex with someone you know those feelings are universal. Of course, if you're from the queer community, there's potentially an added layer of you know what I'm doing is not maybe seen as normal or maybe there's shame, but I think just starting those conversations is a start, no matter what your sexuality is, I think, normal or maybe there's shame, um, but I think just starting those conversations is a start, no matter what your sexuality.
Speaker 3:So I think, yeah, there's really good advice absolutely, and I think absolutely, and and then, yeah, as I said, the extra dimension in this is that you know, except that you don't know everything, uh, on this one, and that you can't bank on your own experience no, and and through this podcast, I've learned that everyone has a different experience growing up, coming out with their relationships.
Speaker 2:you know what's happened to them during their life.
Speaker 3:That is unique for everyone, so yeah, Absolutely, and I'm very happy that we in our company give that space to talk about these things and to have that open up. I recently spoke to another colleague who was experiencing that a friend of her daughter's is transitioning and I hooked her up with one of our trans colleagues in Canada so that she could ask questions and you know what is it like. How can she support her daughters? And I think you know in a company, if you can provide that, if you can provide this space where also employees who are going through this, whether because of a relative or a family member or because of themselves or something like that, that you can provide that within an organization, I think that that's fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's so powerful. Thank you so much, marco. Fantastic, yeah, yeah, it's so powerful. Thank you so much, marco. I've really enjoyed speaking with you and I know my listeners will have loved learning from you.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:My favourite takeaway from Marco was when he talked about how most gay people are not raised by gay people and how parents can get themselves educated by reading and talking to experienced people to learn and support their kids. Marco talked about a colleague whose 16-year-old son just came out. Neil Wilson will be on the podcast soon talking about his three sons. If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something, please share on social media. Give a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts and leave a comment.